Concentricity Gauges - Worth it?

[vonb]

I've been reloading close to 20 years. In that time, I always tried to buy the best I could afford. For me it was a Forster press with Forster and Redding benchrest/mic/bushing dies. With that said, I've always felt the ammo I loaded was decent. However, I've never owned a concentricity gauge to check TIR.

With that said, are they worth the money for verification? How often do you use yours? Which one do you recommend? I've been looking at the Redding Slant Bed.

 

[dusterdave173]

Same as you so I bought a nice used one
So you confirm that you are doing OK and smile when you get .002 or less
I just picked that number out of the sky
I have not been able to tell on paper if run out matters I have had some with .003-.004 range at worst . I check brass neck and then on the bullet--
It sits parked in the back of my desk -I check every now and then but think you could borrow one for a few weeks then give it back and never worry about it
I think if you have a Lot then you are doing something very wrong--I think that if you have a little say between .001 and .003 or so then you are doing fantastic and can sleep better but not sure if it will out shoot more run out.
For me it seems like learning how to prep brass , neck tension and seating depth are where its at
Everybody needs one for a while , then you can sell it and check that off your list
FWIW the Sinclair I have used is a PIA to learn how to operate and get good results if you have old stiff fingers

 

[6BRA]

Once you figure out how to reload with a TIR of .0005 or less across 50 cases. They collect dust. Getting to that point is another thing.

 

[dstoenner]

Once you figure out how to reload with a TIR of .0005 or less across 50 cases. They collect dust. Getting to that point is another thing.

And you can’t get to that point without one to diagnose each step of your reloading process. I use mine to sort my batch loads. I use 4&5’s for foulers and checking velocity. My average is > 50% are 1, another 20-30% are 2 and the rest are 3. The point if you are shooting a scored target is to get a consistent group so they all shoot alike

So yes they are worth it

 

[Mark611]

I use mine all the time, I load several different calibers in bolt and auto loaders, especially 5.56 in AR platforms, no 2 chambers are the same, so to speak, and it all depends on several factors, IMO, if you have a custom barrel, runout may not be an issue, if you have an off the shelf gun and want to make your groups as good as you can get them? here again IMO, I would want to eliminate all the factors I could to build the best ammo I could for my rifle! I check several rounds I build for runout, but I also check all of the rest of my process, like the ojive measurements, primer seating depths ETC, IMO if you're going to do all of that why not check for runout? also doing thing the way I do helps make sure nothing has loosened up like a Die of whatever, me set up keeps my runout at 1k or less, and I'm happy with that! YMMV

 

[lotech]

I've had a Sinclair gauge for years and occasionally use it (maybe annually), but it remains the least used tool on the bench.

 

[EEP]

I use my Sinclair occasionally and have found problems with sizing dies as a result especially those with the expander ball. I most often find it useful for checking concentricity of my necks before turning. Allot of times this will save you pieces of brass if you check them before turning and correct the runout problem. Overall, they are a good tool for every competitive shooter to have tucked away until needed.

 

[Billy 30-06]

With good sizing dies most of the runout is going to be neck thickness variance. New once fired brass can be sorted by checking concentricity. With concentric necks bullets will be seated straight with just about any dies. With concentric brass my lee seating dies will seat bullets just as concentric as my widden dies.

 

[PopCharlie]

About 10 years ago, I went through a 2 year odyssey examining every step in my reloading process. The goal was to reduce runout of my loaded rounds. As I went through the equipment, I replaced stuff I thought was not optimal. Dies, press, etc etc etc. I determined that the bushing dies were inducing the runout. I tried Redding, Forster and Whidden bushing dies with the same results. I replaced my Redding Boss press because it had some play in the ram at the top of the stroke. Using a Forster coax and Forster non bushing full length sizing dies (with the decapping assembly removed), I could get runout on the sized cases down to less that .001 runout. I then started using an Arbor press and Wilson seating dies. I was able to get 90% of my loaded rounds at or below .001 runout measured at the bullet ogive. End result on target.....no difference. So, I stopped measuring runout.
I'm back to using bushing dies. I've added a Porter pin die for final neck sizing. Now I focus on powder charge, seating depth and neck tension to create accurate loads.

PopCharlie

 

[BoydAllen]

I think that runout is something that matters at the extreme but may not for situations where other issues limit accuracy. For most shooters it is those other issues that they should concentrate on.

Having said that, I prefer to load the straightest ammunition that I can, if for no other reason than the confidence that doing so brings. I have an actual benchrest rifle (LV, 6PPC), and do the whole thing at the range, loading and tuning, shooting off of excellent rests/bags, over flags.

On the subject of bushings, I have seen multiple reliable reports that the SAC bushings that are interchangeable with Wilson bushings, produce measurably less runout. I believe that this is because of the design of the part that captures and centers the case neck, having discussed this at length with the owner/inventor.

I absolutely agree that one piece dies that have the correct neck ID produce the straightest cases. I have one that gives me about a quarter thou. at the end of the neck. Unfortunately it cannot read wind flags, and apparently, at times, neither can I.

 

[Walt Krafft]

I would never loan out my concentricity gage. I would sell it in an instant. Loaning it implies that it will come back to clutter up the place.

 

[drop_point]

They are useful to verify your process. A friend of mine has been loading ammo and shooting long range for a couple decades. He never has any problems and never even owned a chronograph until I gave him my old one.

One day he wanted to put his ammo on my gauge and found out it was 0.008”-0.012”. He was happy with his rifles’ performance until then.

Only time I use mine is if I change something. My match ammo is usually less than a thou. I don’t think it would matter if it was 4 though.

 

[DiRTY DOG]

Seems it's more of a diagnostic tool to find where in your loading process a problem originates? If you have a problem? Most casual shooters can't outshoot the difference between 1thou and 10thou concentricity if there even is a difference on the target.

I bought one when I first started loading, but soon sold it. It verified my loads were acceptably straight, but it did not seem very useful for a PD shooter who was content with 1/2" groups.

 

[wboggs]

Seems it's more of a diagnostic too to find where in your loading process a problem originates? If you have a problem? Most casual shooters can't outshoot the difference between 1thou and 10thou concentricity if there even is a difference on the target.

I bought one when I first started loading, but soon sold it. It verified my loads were acceptable straight, but it did not seem very useful for a PD shooter who was content with 1/2" groups.

I like the slant version of the Redding since it is

I've been reloading close to 20 years. In that time, I always tried to buy the best I could afford. For me it was a Forster press with Forster and Redding benchrest/mic/bushing dies. With that said, I've always felt the ammo I loaded was decent. However, I've never owned a concentricity gauge to check TIR.

With that said, are they worth the money for verification? How often do you use yours? Which one do you recommend? I've been looking at the Redding Slant Bed.

I like my Redding slant bed. It is easier on the neck. Agree that after you refine your routine you use it only to verify. I also use it to check factory ammo for my buddies.

 

[Kyle Schultz]

I've been reloading close to 20 years. In that time, I always tried to buy the best I could afford. For me it was a Forster press with Forster and Redding benchrest/mic/bushing dies. With that said, I've always felt the ammo I loaded was decent. However, I've never owned a concentricity gauge to check TIR.

With that said, are they worth the money for verification? How often do you use yours? Which one do you recommend? I've been looking at the Redding Slant Bed.

Solution desperately seeking a problem. Spend your money on good wind flags.

 

[L.Sherm]

Are you achieving your goals on target?

 

[Doug Casner]

What do you guys do if the concentricity is way off? It sounds like you change dies till it straightens out. At lake city we would have the shop come in and line up the ramwith the anvils . I always wondered what you could do to a press that wasnt adjustable? Just change parts? Doug

 

[EEP]

What do you guys do if the concentricity is way off? It sounds like you change dies till it straightens out. At lake city we would have the shop come in and line up the ramwith the anvils . I always wondered what you could do to a press that wasnt adjustable? Just change parts? Doug

Good questions.i didn’t go into any detail above but might be helpful to someone if I do, so here goes.

First, the only press issue I’ve ever discovered was an old Lyman turret press that I bought with my summer job money when I was 13… over 35 some years ago. You might say what was his parents thinking. I had plenty of mentors in this time of my life with reloading and never hurt myself or anyone else. The turret had allot of loose play in it. I found the single stage presses are more robust as a result.

Second, I discovered the expander balls in those one pass type dies sometimes can use some polishing with Emory cloth on the expander ball while spinning in a drill so they don’t grip the neck as hard when pulling back through the neck. Of course this does impact neck tension but depends on the end game… in my particular case I use these type dies for my hunting cartridges.

Thirdly, I use it to look at case necks before turning ie, expanding 6br up to 30br with expander mandrel can really make some crooked necks. If you have 11thou necks and need to turn to 9thou you’re SOL if you have more than 1thou runout. In this case look at FCP video on this very subject. I actually asked Brian to make me an oversized mandrel so I could size the neck back down. It worked and now he sells them. If you look at the video, that was a few months after my request to Brian and NO those were not my cases

This has been my experience, what I learned and changed in my processes as a result of what the gauge showed me.

 

[DiffEQ]

I use a machinist's stone where I roll the case or loaded round on it and I can see 0.004 TIR. Below that, it's hard for me to tell.
I know this because I used my concentricity gauge for a while and verified what I could see, what I could not.
What I found is that I don't see it affecting my accuracy, up to 0.004. When I see more than that, I dig into my process to see what's out of whack.
The above works well for me, so my gauge sits in a tub with other measurement instruments. I don't think I've pulled it out in at least four years.

Accuracy is one of those things -- some days I'm shooting at the limits of my gun's accuracy, and on others I cannot shoot for sheet. Same gun, same ammo -- I'm the uncontrolled variable.

 

[Doug Casner]

Thanks EEP, I always wondered what to do for concentricity on a press with no adjustment for it. We would have the machine shop line it up if that didnt work they would put new bearings in the ram . We had 5 thousands leeway. Most of them were M-60 rounds though. Doug