Competition BR Cleaning

[StephenPerry]

Shooters
I am bring this cleaning Thread back because of some recent conversations I have had with BR shooters. One in particular a 3 times over BR HOF guy with over 30+ points told me he uses old Hoppes #9 and Sweets for copper exclusively. I too use the same but I add some ammonia to the Hoppes. All todays solvents lack what the old Hoppes has character, smell, and nitro. Brands of patches make no difference according my near greatest BR guy. Good stiff bronze brushes are still his choice.
Wake up America clean those barrels. But there is a limit on clean. 10 white patches after brushing is a waste of 8. Makes sense to me. Also remember my alcohol patches from my original Thread. Enjoy.
Stephen Perry

 

[BoydAllen]

Stephen,
Howdy! The nitrobenzene is no longer in #9, and has not been for some time...nasty carcinogen. As I understand it what is left in the current stuff is mostly kerosene and something for the great smell. Adding a little Kroil to the #9 makes it work better on powder fouling. Neither do much for copper.

I don't know if it is still the case, but Gary Ocock used to clean with straight GM Top Engine Cleaner, nothing else.

I know excellent shooters that clean after every match, and those that don't. I have not been able to see any problems group wise, stretching as far as 24 shots or so. I will say that after doing a major cleaning at a yardage change, including brushing, I have been bitten by not shooting enough foulers. I would shoot three with the third close to the second, go to the record and have an unexplained flier at some point in the group. This has happened more than once.

One particular barrel did its best work when quite powder fouled, others have done well with minimal foulers, while relatively clean. I think the important thing is to determine what works with a particular barrel and stick with that when it is on the rifle.

How are the plans for the new location coming?

 

[StephenPerry]

Boyd
The Hoppes #9 I buy has the nitro added back into it at the same rate Hoppes took it out. Lester sells the original blend. I bought several Qts of it a couple years ago. The original Hoppes smell which I have always called the smell of benchrest gives the new stuff with nitro benzene added the same smell. The blend I am talking about is not the Hoppes #9 you now buy in stores. When I shot the 1977 NBRSA Nats at Kelbly's the Hoppe's smell is what I remember the most. The whole loading room reeked of the smell good or bad. Walt and I commented on that original Hoppes smell last weekend at Phoenix, he was at the 1977 Nats also of coarse.

Boyd I talked with Ron Cottriel today about our new BR site at Angeles Range. He had asked me to come up with a BR bench design for the new Range. I have an appointment to bring my conceptual drawings this Friday to Angeles Range so he can plan the work. Gee sure helps the fact that I am a site planner at my Job. Since the fact that I am also a land surveyor Ron feels we will have the premier 100' BR range in the Country when done. That only makes me want for me to design and build the Premier 100/200/300 Range in the Country. Someday. Given our 100' pad we will be dealing with Joe Stanovich and myself decided to go with a bench design similar to what we shot at Ben Avery Range last weekend. Joe and myself measured all the attributes of the Phoenix BR bench and I added it to my San Gabriel & Visalia drawings. Since I have shot at San Gabriel, Visalia and Phoenix Ranges regularly for the last 12 years I have come to admire the Phoenix BR bench for simplicity and practicality. Joe agrees. Therefore the Angeles Range BR benches will be of Phoenix design with Visalia and San Gabriel dimensions to fit our limited size. We want all 20 of our benches down on our new pad so c/c of each bench will be about 4'10" close to Visalia's 5'. I have all the equipment we ran San Gabriel BR at my place waiting to be moved to our new Angeles container. Ron informed me yesterday our container will be on site. Ron and and I are going to the San Gabriel sale on Nov 11 to look at some containers like the one we used at San Gabriel Range.
My attitude and Ron's is to begin the grading of the parking lot, pour the extended pad, build the overhead, and pour the benches. Super Pronto, as soon as Angeles Range gets the final Permits from LA County Building & Safety. I help write specs at San Bernardino County for building permits so I told Ron to keep checking till his permits gets reviewed. Ron has help lined up to do the Range prep among his members, funding has been approved, and I am keeping my BR guys informed of progress. Realistically I am saying 4-6 months for BR-Day. Until the Angeles range goes on line those of us capable of traveling are shooting the Visalia/Phoenix BR shoots.
Stephen Perry

 

[StephenPerry]

Boyd
Again, The items I gave to you about the upcoming Angeles BR Range are all I am willing to tell right now but plenty enough to give curious minds a taste. I have already written the 07 Schedule. Angeles will continue the side by side NBRSA/IBS affiliations we had at San Gabriel. I will be the IBS Director for Angeles Range Gary will be the NBRSA Director. No problemo there on my part. Our shooters shoot very well in either Organization and that is the way I like it.
Our Merchandise Shoot always shows bi-partisan support. Besides the IBS Web has no comparison in BR unless you consider the San Gabriel soon to be Angeles Web. Long live BR as a family of similar interest.
Since I wrote this Post the decision has been made to go with an NBRSA Schedule at Angeles BR.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[JER]

Why would anyone in their right mind use a known carcinogen for anything?

Is a small group worth your health? Life has risk, but some risk taking is downright foolish.

 

[jb1000br]

JER -- Why do people smoke?

JB

 

[JER]

JER -- Why do people smoke?

JB

Good question.

 

[StephenPerry]

JER
If you knew what you were talking about I wouldn't have to answer this question. JB knows. Bear in mind you have been short with me in your answers before so 1 reply on the nitro question. True nitro can be a cancer causing element and is absorbed into your skin. But at what rate of absorption. Cleaning a barrel or inhaling fumes hasn't sent any shooter to an early grave that I know. Walt Berger I mentioned in another Post turned 78 last weekend. He, George Kelbly, Stan Buchtel, Ferris Pindell, Mike Walker, Fred Sinclair, Ed Shilen, Larry Englebrecht have all shot BR since the 1950's and are still shooting and kicking. Hoppes was the common solvent until the 1980's old Hoppes still does a nice job of removing carbon from a barrel. Point is JER we don't drink Hoppe's we use it in small increments. Hoppe's took the Nitro out because it killed a couple rats. Rat's can't sue so to avoid human rat law suits it was safer for them to re-formulate. Call Hoppes to get more info.
Stephen Perry

 

[JER]

Steve, thanks for the info, but since there are more effective carbon cleaners out there that do not depend on any carcinogens,regardless of how much one would need to be exposed to), I'll pass on Hoppes.

The fact that it smells like dung is just one more reason to avoid it.

 

[StephenPerry]

JER
If I hadn't grown up on old Hoppes I would be where you are at. Of the current solvents my favorite is Shooter's Choice. But I still use Sweets when needed. Most solvents getter dun.
Stephen Perry

 

[StephenPerry]

[MODERATOR's NOTE: The following post contains a number of recommendations with which we disagree, and which may potentially be harmful to the barrel and/or the shooters health. We advise against ever using Drano in a barrel, and we generally,though not always) recommend against mixing solvents.

Steel wool can be effective against surface rust, but the circumstances when it is appropriate to scrub a bore with steel wool would be extreme to say the least.]

Shooters
Been reading alot of guys buying used guns and not having good results with the barrels. I just told a guy this morning if I had a gun I just bought I might spend a week cleaning it. That is not a false claim I have recovered several barrels in my time. I never give up on a barrel that showed inherent accuracy from the beginning. Some barrels abused by cleaning rods never have a future but I know how to use a cleaning rod so that kind of barrel does not reside in my collection.
I would go as far as cleaning with Drano or a mixture of toothpaste and Comet if I felt it worked maybe steel wool wrapped around a Hoppes soaked mop. What difference If your barrel is shooting in patterns instead of groups you have nothing to lose the barrel could be gone anyway. Especially if you are creating the Big Dipper and it's star patterened cousins everytime with a barrel you have the signs of a polluted barrel. If you the buyer are looking to buy a gun have the seller run a couple patches through the barrel and check out the barrel. I would suggest a Rubbing Alcohol patch and a large dry patch. Give it a test ride like buying a car if he says no go elsewhere. Minor powder smudges are ok but if the leade looks like an Easter egg take your money elsewhere.
When you get this polluted barrel home go through these steps 2 or 3 times if needed. Run 2 wet patches of old Hoppes, if you don't have it get some. Let soak for 20 minutes. Run a Rubbing Alcohol Patch through a couple times leave wet. Now take a good stiff bronze brush and run your Solvent or a mixture of GM cleaner and Kroil Oil or Old Hoppes and Sweets. Either one works fine. I even will add some white ammonia to the GM. Load up your brush I dip in bottle at home and drip on brush at a Match. I will pass brush with barrel guide in place at least 8 times to and fro. Then I clean brush load up again and go another 8 passes. Let sit another 20 minutes. The Hoppes mixture with the Sweets should remove the copper the GM with the ammonia should do the same. Test for copper anyway with Sweets. Patch with a nylon jag with 2 patches of Sweets. Let sit 20 minutes. Run 2 wet patches of Rubbing Alcohol followed by a couple dry ones looking for the dark blue. If dark blue continue with the Sweets till you get light blue. Light blue patches are teasers let em go. After this run 1 patch of light oil and put away. The day you go to the Range patch out with Rubbing Alcohol patches and dry.
If the barrel shoots well keep the maintenance up. If not you might have to go through this cleaning regimen a couple more times to make a decision to stay on with this barrel or look elsewhere.
Stephen Perry

 

[StephenPerry]

Shooters
I wrote several of these Threads with the intention of bringing them back for newer readers. The Competition Cleaning thread is specific and general in nature. As I am writing this Post I just ran two wet brushes of old Hoppes through the bore 8 times each. I have a passion for cleaning guns mine not yours. Like most of you I have cleaned guns since I got my first one back in 1963. I had a Sears cleaning kit for a 22, still have it. My dad told me clean as much as you want. He removed the sharp edges where the sections screw together. Like Forrest Gump I cleaned every chance I got. Still have my first 22 barrel looks razor sharp, hell I might go clean it this afternoon just like Forrest would. Never saw a barrel I didn't want to clean.
By now you know if you go back and read the Thread I feel cleaning if done properly prolongs the accuracy of your barrel. Now I have cleaned with the best in my Sport but one thing I learned keep your mind on the cleaning not the jawing next to you.
I have been cleaning barrels for the last 2 weeks. I have had as many as 13 rifles laying side by side on my table. Getting ready to screw on my Krieger 22 PPC Rail barrel for Visalia in June. I'll double clean the Krieger and check for copper. Only have used Parker Hale and Dewey rods. All my rods are 36". I use Pro Shot patches 1 1/8, 1 3/8, and 1 3/4. Like Haydon brushes but have Bruno, Watson, and Brite Bore. Haydon bore guides 22 & 6. MTM for the other rifles. Hoppes old blend with Nitro with Sweets added. I also have most of the other solvents and my blend of GM, Kroil, and ammonia.
Clean often clean right if in doubt start from the beginning of this Thread. A clean horse is a happy horse.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[Forum Boss]

Note,

In general, we do not recommend blending solvents, with some of the popular Kroil blends being the exceptions. There are chemical reactions which can occur which were never intended by the manufacturers. At a minimum you may be creating compounds that are not readily neutralized by rubbing alchohol.

We would never recommend Drano or Comet in a bore, period. The reasons to avoid Drano are numerous and serious.

Regarding cleaning frequency... There is increasing evidence from many competition disciplines, that accuracy may hold longer and barrel accurate life may last longer with increased intervals between cleaning. Short-range benchrest remains the exception to this rule, but even in that game, some individuals are cleaning less frequently.

You may wish to read this summary of cleaning/brushing techniques from a variety of leading competitors, gunsmiths, and barrel-makers.

http://www.6mmbr.com/borebrushing.html

 

[StephenPerry]

Paul
I know you like reports that's fine but my Thread deals with proven cleaning techniques. Lester Bruno many times a HOF point getter steered me to the old Hoppes and Sweets mix. If he does I'm sure Ocock, Gentner, Boop and the rest of those Eastern guys do it. Lester and Gary started shooting in Pennsylvania. Don't be so quick to shoot down someones comments on cleaning it amounts to my word against yours. The bronze brush and mixed solvents have been around for 60 years, longer than you or me.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[Forum Boss]

Stephen,

This is not a matter of your word vs. my word, or what you surmise some other shooters may be using in some other part of the country. The point is that blending a variety of toxic chemicals in a witches brew takes one into a chemical no mans' land where we no longer have a tested, verifiable understanding of said compounds' true toxicity or what they do to barrel steel during medium or long-term exposure.

For example, when you combine two different solvents, such as Sweets and GM TEC, then which products' MSDS,Material Safety Data Sheet) do you use? And how much dwell time is safe for your barrel--the relatively short period of Sweets' or the much longer period of GM TEC? Or perhaps the safe dwell time is even shorter than the manufacturers' recommendation for either product because the mixture is stronger than the component parts. And if you are "boosting" a commercial solvent with extra ammonia, what effect is that going to have?

Lothar Walther has done extensive lab analysis on barrel wear and bore erosion in short-range benchrest barrels,from a variety of makers). One of Walther's conclusions was that a significant amount of cracking and surface damage was caused by ammonia residues and ammonia compounds left in the bore that combined with combustion by-products during subsequent firings. In other words, shooting the gun with even trace amounts of ammonia in the bore was not healthy for the steel. You combine strong ammonia with a grippy, penetrating oil such as Kroil and you make it much more unlikely that you are removing ALL the ammonia from the barrel.

Given the fact that many fine products are available that work exceptionally well right out of the bottle when used as the manufacturers intended, why play backyard chemist? This site has a paramount responsibility to advocate safe usage of potentially harmful, toxic chemicals. The best way to assure that the chemicals you use are safe is to apply them in the manner prescribed by the manufacturer.

The bottom line here is I don't want readers to think it's a great idea to test their Nitro/Sweets/toothpaste/raw ammonia mystery gel overnight and then complain of a pitted bore or premature throat erosion, or find that a frothy, caustic concoction of Drano and Brand X solvent has damaged their stock finish or worse yet, harmed their skin or internal organs.

 

[StephenPerry]

Paul
Eloquent way of making your point. But consider this every commercial solvent you recommend is a chemical blend of several ingredients. That is what makes them unique to their namesake. Sorry I don't fit in your mold.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[dreever]

Don't know what the going consensus is out there in California, but back here on the east coast a lot of top shooters have gone to either Bore Tech Eliminator, or Pro Shot Copper Solvent IV.
No nasty chemicals, cleans up with water, and works just as well if not better than the dangerous concoctions. This is the new millennium and there are more environmentally friendly products out there.

Danny

 

[jb1000br]

Paul
Eloquent way of making your point. But consider this every commercial solvent you recommend is a chemical blend of several ingredients. That is what makes them unique to their namesake. Sorry I don't fit in your mold.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

They also have paid chemists to make sure there is no harm done to barrels...or consumer's brains or lungs...

 

[Spotcheck_Billy]

There's a lot to be said for being very careful when mixing different brands and types of cleaning chemicals.

I seem to remember an article that was published in Precision Shooting magazine several years ago where the author described how he ruined an expensive stainless target barrel when he used some Shooters Choice in the bore and followed it up with Sweets without neutralizing the Shooters Choice. IIRC, the entire surface of the bore was pitted.

IMHO. it's not worth taking the chance!

 

[Bobs243Ackley]

FWIW, I had a conversation with one of the owners at Shooters Choice and he stated in a conversation that you can use a 16 oz. bottle of Shooters Choice with a 8 oz. can of Kroil. They had a chemist check it and found that this mix ratio is ok to use with their product. They did state that you do not want to mix the Kroil any heavier than this mix because it starts to dilute the Shooters Choice and will impair the effectiveness of the solvent at that point. This is the only mix that I am aware of that has the approval of a solvent manufacturer.

Cordially,
Bob Blaine