Comparison of 105 class bullets

[22DASHER]

For all you 600/1000 yard BR guys. I am looking for info in regards to sorted Berger 108's/105's vs custom Vapor Trail/EPS/Bart's bullets. Would or could the accuracy obtained be as good with either bullet when each of them are sorted by bearing surface first and then with Bob Green's tool? I know shooters spend money on custom bullets because they say you don't have to sort them but the top shooters still seem to sort them,however can the same accuracy be obtained through sorting Berger's?

 

[LRPV]

I could not. I think it's very lot dependent with the off the shelf bullets. If you are lucky enough to get a really good lot and buy enough of them, then they seem to be very good. The way I look at the price difference is this, Custom's cost twice as much but I shoot half as many to get them tuned so in my mind it works itself out.

 

[22DASHER]

I could not. I think it's very lot dependent with the off the shelf bullets. If you are lucky enough to get a really good lot and buy enough of them, then they seem to be very good. The way I look at the price difference is this, Custom's cost twice as much but I shoot half as many to get them tuned so in my mind it works itself out.

Jason, are you sorting your custom bullets and if so, what methods?

 

[Loggins J]

I shoot EPS and I don't check them I just pull them out of the bag I have checked them it a waste of time I like that I have shoot berger hornday serria and you need to sort them it not worth the time to me

 

[LRPV]

Jason, are you sorting your custom bullets and if so, what methods?

I do not sort them. I shoot Vaportrails and when I have checked them, I found no need to sort. I check seating depth when I get a new batch and that's it. Tommy keeps them very consistent even between different brands/lots of jackets.

 

[dmoran]

I presently don't shoot custom bullets at matches. I use qualified/sorted production bullets. I also point and/or trim if it proves out in testing (but doesn't always prove out, bullet type and lot dependent - IME).
How I qualify them:
1st - Base to ogive
2nd - Base to seater diameter
3rd - OAL (after pointing/trimming if I do either or both)

Of the toughest competitors that I feel I shoot against that are on custom bullets, they also qualify/sort and point/trim (if need be and if tests out). In talking with them, sounds like they may end up with a pile or two less in there qualifications then I end up with.

Edit PS... fairly picky on what Lots of bullets I will use when I'm buying bullets.
They can't have much variation or I get a different Lot or bullet that meets my criteria.

My 2-Cents
Donovan

 

[LRPV]

I should mention that I shoot 600yd BR and very little 1k. There is a difference in the amount of variables you can get away with. Nicely said Tom.

 

[Jet]

22DASHER

You have some golden advice above. Sorting is a must for all bullets regardless of factory or shop they come from. My experience is much more limited than Donovan's and Tom's but every bullet I've used/tested has some variance. Vapor Trails are hands down the most consistent bullets I've used and is the only bullet I would consider using straight out of the box.

I shoot Bergers mostly due to the cost vs custom bullets. They must be sorted if you want to be competitive with them. I've seen as much as .014 bearing surface difference within one box of 500. Normally the difference is in the .008 range. Once sorted into sub lots they shoot pretty darn good.

One of the main reasons I sort is to find the one or two bullets in a box that will screw your group up. The steps I use are:

1. Bearing surface
2. BTO
3. Diameter
4. Bob Green's tool
5. Trim and point if testing proves beneficial

Sorting/bullet prep is a PITA and I wouldn't do it if it wasn't necessary.

Good Shooting

Rich

 

[22DASHER]

Yes this info is great guys and I really appreciate it! Sounds like I will spending my winter sorting some bullets. I am going to try Bergers in one rifle and Bart's or Vapor Trails in the other...then I will see if I can even shoot the difference. Thanks guys

 

[BOB LEE SWAGGER]

I will compare 105 vld's to 103 vapor trail, as most of my hands on experience is with these two. I will echo most of what Jason said, but I still sort. The difference is how long sorting takes, and how many things need sorted. I've had a phenomenal barrel that shot one of the best lot of vld's I've seen in 2009. The same barrel in 2010 was able to beat the 09 aggs with Spencer's, even though starting the season with 900 rounds on the barrel. It wasn't a huge margin, although if I had to be honest, 2009 had more good condition days.

I personally don't sort bearing surface length anymore. I still use the stand however. The Bob green tool is a wonderful idea, and an important part of sorting, but I find it hard to get along with (repeatability issues). I use my granite stand, a one tenth indicator (without attachment), and a couple different comparators. I first measure base to ogive (larger comparator), and then base to higher up the ogive (smaller comparator). At this point I now have effectively qualified the ogives, in effect what the green tool does. For me, when measuring the same bullet, my method is was way more repeatable, which lowers the extreme spread of my own error.

Now, one thing I've found with the vapors so far, is that the two above measurements correlate. This means, my piles aren't splitting when I switch comparators, and this makes life much easier. EDIT - I want to make clear, I NOW only use the one comparator on vapors. After discovering the correlation to the green tool, and also the small comparator. I do check every loaded round, and any odd seated ones are used for sighters. Assuming my seater stem didn't change diameters, this effectively Bob Green tool sorted/double checked them.

Since I qualified using the bullet base as a datum, it now means something when I measure OAL. OAL is my last step, bulking them into .001 ES piles. I take the first two measurements into .0005 piles (I know, notice the baldness).

My piles of bergers of course are more of each. But I also check for varying diameter. Which sucks by the way, it's hard to measure. What I do is lock a micrometer and basically use it for a go gauge. I do not check vaportrail, the man does good.

The sizes of the piles are much larger with vapors. The bergers got the edge on the amount of piles though, lol.

From here I will work up a baseline load, seating, powder, neck tension etc. Once I have a solid load, I will now test measured bullets, vs measured and pointed, trimmed and pointed etc. Varied amounts of the above, keeping notes on length and meplat diameter(best I can measure). All testing done at 1k, so I can make out the difference, and always in a format that mixes conditions evenly throughout the test. Because conditions vary from day to day, I always take the last sessions "winner" to test against whatever else I dreamt up to test next.

That's about it, pretty easy really.

Tom

Please, when you say that you still use the stand, which stand and measurement are you referring too? I know this is an old thread but I am searching for all the best advice on sorting. Mainly for the Bergers. I just bought the Bob Green tool and I am slowly learning it's nuances. Based on this forum I think that I should sort BTO and want to use the best method.

 

[BOB LEE SWAGGER]

http://accuracyone.com/products/bullettipping/

Scroll down to the bottom of the page. I think that's the one I have anyways lol.

Tom

Thank you Tom. You don't sort by bearing surface area though do you? Is this stand capable of being used for base to ogive measurements? Or are you using it to sort something else?

 

[BOB LEE SWAGGER]

It's designed to measure bearing surface ( two diameters actually). I have a flat adapter on the stem side and personally just use it for base to xyz diameter. I've had success with shooting bearing length sorted bullets and also base to ogive sorted bullets. After measuring @Tom E bullets for 3 lots now, I plan to try out of the box lol.

Tom

Thanks so much.