HEADS UP...New 6mm Berger 105 VLD's

[EricStecker]

Frank,

I was going to refrain from posting again on this thread as I would rather see it come to a close. I changed my mind as I want to publicly accept your apology. I believe you to be sincere.

I hope you understand my intense frustration with this situation as I believe strongly that the production, quality folks and I worked hard to resolve your concerns. For you to make claims that we would do something underhanded is a hot button with me for reasons unrelated to this situation.

I believe that there are well known people in the firearms industry who are taking advantage of shooters for money. I believe these people are hurting the shooting sports. I am committed to behaving in a manner that is consistent with ethical and reasonable practices as I feel this is in the best interest of the shooting sports and Berger.

It is my sincere hope that you continue to shoot Bergers as soon as you find a lot that works in your rifles.

Regards,
Eric Stecker

 

[StephenPerry]

Eric
I shot some 105's in a 243x6BR at Pala last month and could not not believe the knockdown power and accuracy of the bullets. Small silhouettes at 200,300,400,500,600 M. Prarie Dogs at 600. That's long yards for most. Eric I knocked down 46 of 50 my first time out. Knocked all 10 down at 400 & 600. The 105 was a very good choice for the long distances. At 200 the baby chicks blew 15 ft in the air when hit.
Eric you don't need to respond to adverse comments. You seem to be the only commercial bullet maker these guys get any info from. I know you better than the rest of these guys and you wear your pride on your sleeve, that's where you get hurt. Few of these of these guys know the personal sacrifices you made to return to Berger. Jackets are better, bullet designs are keeping up, and no negative comments among the shooters I hang with.
Eric you still are a very young Man in the bullet biz, your customers need not be your friends. The fact that you are getting comments on Berger bullets tells you they like em. Enjoy your family and home and give me a call for a Pizza. I can be there in 10 minutes.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[jb1000br]

Well done guys. Glad this worked out in the end.

Frank, you have an email...

Jason

 

[jb1000br]

OK, took some measurements with my digital 50millionths Mit.

max/min listed, 5 bullets each, measured 3-4 times around the circumference:

*5th digit is a 1/2 tenth blinker,always 0 or 5)

--------------------Pressure Ring----------------Ogive

Berger 105VLD--0.24305-0.24330-------0.24270-0.24290
lot: #304


Lapua 105--------0.24270-0.24280-------0.24265-0.24270
lot: JEVDAK

So at the pressure ring, the BERGERS varied 1/4 of 1thousandth and the LAPUAS varied 1 tenth of 1 thousandth

at the ogive, BERGERS varied 2tenths of 1 thousandth, and the LAPUAS varied 1 twentieth of 1 thousandth,can be take as zero with these tools)

ERIC - how old is my lot???

JB

 

[StephenPerry]

Bullet Guru's
How many of you make bullets and how many of you know how to measure bullets? If you pass the first test how many of you have a perfect barrel that can can appreciate perfect bullets. Flush.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[jb1000br]

"Flush?" Royal flush?

SP - how many ways can one measure a cylinder? Please enlighten us of the intricacies.

Most BR quality barrels are spec'd 1-5 tenth tolerance over the length right...

I personally am not complaining about any measurements, just presenting what my mic reads.

JB

 

[LongRanger]

Jason will have, by end of this coming week, the box of 21 105's from lot #559 I sent Danny for measurement. I got these back from Danny yesterday, and am sending to Jason, unopened as received back from Danny. Jason can then make his own measurements of what I sent Danny and, since I am also sending Jason an unopened box of 100 lot #559 105's as sent me by Eric, he can make and post whatever further measurements he wants to make and, hopefully some pictures.

Personally, it makes not one whit of difference to me what the bullets...or dies, or barrels or whatever... measure as long as the bullets shoot well for me with my gear. Whatever I or anyone else measures...with whatever equipment and in whatever fashion... is my/their standard of reference for the current item versus all others.

IOW...I don't need to be an acoustics engineer to know that tapes played through my ancient Akai recorder sound good to me.

As already evidenced, the new 105's are shooting great for some and made a nice showing at Oak Ridge yesterday. I wish....I wish....oh well.

Frank

 

[EricStecker]

Donovan,

I am happy to hear that this particular lot of 105 gr VLD are working for you and I appreciate you posting that on this thread. I am receiving several similar report however these folks do not wish to get in the middle of this particular thread. I appreciate everyone's feedback so I will let them decide for themselves if they want to post their results.

Jason,

Do you have a gage block to confirm that your micrometer is calibrated? Please don't take that as a slam as it happens frequently that measuring devices are not quite calibrated especially when measuring in .0001.

I checked the floor inspection paperwork for lot 304 and the pressure ring diameter was listed as .2433 to .2434. We use an indicating micrometer with which we also roll the bullet to check for roundness. It is our tolerance that the bullets must be round to less than .0001.

I would very much like to see the bullets that you found to vary .0003 in diameter as this would be outside our allowable tolerance. I would also like to measure some of the Lapua bullets as it surprises me that they would release bullets under groove diameter,.2430).

To answer your question lot 304 was made in October, 2006.

Stephen and Jason,

Steve makes a good point that we find to be true in many situations. Few people have the proper measuring device to accurately measure bullets in .0001. ,Few people need the proper measuring device unless they are bullet makers or are hardcore tooling folk) The best device for measuring OD and roundness is an indicating micrometer that you calibrate each time you use it with a certified gage pin.

Many assumptions are made about the easy of measuring a cylinder especially when the measuring device is of high quality. We find time and again that any device can lose its calibration which is why an indicating micrometer and a gage pins works so well. Even if you have a gage pin you can unintentionally produce a reading on a ratchet style micrometer. This is not possible when using an indicating micrometer.

When you add the fact that the ratchet style micrometers can so easily be influenced by the human factor,when measuring .0001) you get a system that is unreliable at best. Think of it like trying to change your tire with a crescent wrench. Sure you can get the job done but it is not the best tool for the job and will provide you with questionable results,are the lug nuts really tight enough).

Consider the measurment you get when using calipers. Just because an LED diplay shows four digits after the decimal,.XXXX) does not mean that it is accurate to the third digit. I have heard the term "very near" to describe the inaccuray of calipers. This is a good desciption of their accuracy level.

How many of us have weighed ourselves in the bathroom and then had the doctor come up with a completely different weight,usually higher - dam doctor scales). All manners of measruring device are subject to many different types of inconsistencies.

Frankly, if we all had indicating micrometers and gage pins we would not be having this conversation. Those who have these items find that they have much less to worry about then they thought they did before they had these items.

Another example of a flawed measuring device is the base to ogive measuring gage block that touches the bullet as close to the point where the bearing surface and the ogive meet. This block engage the bullet with a thin ring that makes it difficult to achieve proper alignment. Further, this type of gage is significantly effected by roundness and diameter variations.

The best gage block to measure base to ogive is a block that touches the bullet with a thick band. We achieve this by using our ogive dies as gage blocks. We open up the ejection pin hole quite a bit so the meplat does not bottom out. When you set the bullet in a gage block such as these the bullet does not wiggle,an indicator of misalignment). Now keep in mind the bullet is not wedged into the gage block as it will easily fall out if you tip the gage block over. What is happening is that the bullet is being supported by a wider band so that it can be held in a repeatable location that is straight each time. This is very difficult with the ring type gage block.

Frank,

When I receive the two boxes you are sending to me of lot 559 I will send one unopened box to Scott Parker for his evaluation. We will measure the bullets in the box we keep then they will be sent to Walt as he needs them to test a new rifle. I will report our findings.

As I said before, don't give up on Berger just because of your recent experience. I find it hard to believe that you have not discovered that other brands to not live up to your expectations. If you stopped shooting a particular brand each time you found that their bullets did not shoot in your rifles you would run out of brands pretty quickly.

Regards,
Eric Stecker

 

[StephenPerry]

Eric
You don't get far commenting on bullet measurements with you. I too own a gage block set. Mitutoyo .0625-2.000 but would not try measure try measuring millionths of a inch just like not trying to weigh .01 of a powder. BR loading need not be that critical at least not on my end.
Eric I don't of any other custom bullet maker being dissected here or many if not all the Production guys like Speer, Nosler, Hornady or Sierra sending their Tech Guys to comment and defend their products. You do Eric but that is the Berger way.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[jb1000br]

Jason,

Do you have a gage block to confirm that your micrometer is calibrated? Please don't take that as a slam as it happens frequently that measuring devices are not quite calibrated especially when measuring in .0001.

I checked the floor inspection paperwork for lot 304 and the pressure ring diameter was listed as .2433 to .2434. We use an indicating micrometer with which we also roll the bullet to check for roundness. It is our tolerance that the bullets must be round to less than .0001.

I would very much like to see the bullets that you found to vary .0003 in diameter as this would be outside our allowable tolerance. I would also like to measure some of the Lapua bullets as it surprises me that they would release bullets under groove diameter,.2430).

To answer your question lot 304 was made in October, 2006.

Eric, I do not have a standard to use to confirm...I am merely attempting to compare sizes measured at the same sitting, I am not offering the measurements as 100% accurate, only a comparison. I will get you a package of numbered bullets to measure after I get some of the new lot. Although, I may well have loaded up the bullet last night that had the low reading...I'll get the mic back out and take a look.

Though, my mic does seem to agree with your .2433 number on lot 304...the minimum on that report only happened once...guess I should have calculated ES on the measurements...IIRC .2432-.2433 was the most common reading.

Cheers,
JB

 

[LongRanger]

When I first started shooting the Berger 105's, lot #071 and earlier, it was because they were fantastic. They grouped well inside my Lapua/AMAX/Sierra loads with my gear at that time and I naturally stopped shooting the others. As I noted ad naseum, I could not get a handle on the Bergers after lot #071. My best wishes go to those shooters who find the skinnier lot #559 works great for them. Until a better, for me, lot of Bergers comes along, I'll stick with the JLK's and the homely SMK's...both of which in their current iteration have incredibly consistent measurements and, for me, shoot inside what I get with the current Berger.

After 40 years in the IE game, I am a jaded jake when it comes to measurements. Like statistics, the results are open to interpretation until all agree on just what "contact" is. Would all agree that even if we got the same exact measurements all the way around the circumference of a bullet, using a measuring device that had the capability to measure the diameter molecule by opposing molecule, that this would show that the bullet is making full contact?

Be careful.

My daughter, a scientist at Oak Ridge National Labs, is one of a dozen people in the world with access to a special electron microscope that gives the operator both tactile and audible feedback when scanning to the molecular, and smaller, level. As she scans the object with a special probe, the scope emits a screeching noise and "rattles" her special "joy stick" as it scratches across the irregular surface of just one molecule. Just imagine the feedback it would give running up and down the hills and valleys of adjoining molecules of copper.

For now, I suggest we all use Eric's measurements as a point of reference. By his equipment, the new bullet is smaller. What each of us find in relation to that is material to just our own situation.

As for the lowly caliper....ah, the shooting records and fortunes that have hinged on it! At least up to now.

Along with the bullets I sent Jason, I sent him a methodology for measuring the new Berger to determine if it has a double taper...just in case he wants to pursue that "possible" feature.

Frank

 

[jb1000br]

Eric - called my smith...will soon have something of certified size to check my mic...

Jason

 

[DaveBrokos]

To quote a well known gunsmith when he found out I was using calipers to measure "Why don't you use a yard stick" I since went to Temperature resistant micrometers and use a ceramic gauge to zero. Lapua's are definetly 242.80

 

[rstreich]

To quote a well known gunsmith when he found out I was using calipers to measure "Why don't you use a yard stick"....

That one cracked me up. Mine once said something like "Just squeeze a little harder until it measures what you want."

Since I come from a family who can cut off a board twice and still have it come up short, I usually keep my measurements to myself.

 

[LongRanger]

'Bout time someone mentioned "temperature." Thanks DaveBrokos for giving me an opening.

I have lots of experience with my size 11 feet getting warm and then feeling very cramped in my size 11 shoes that they slipped so easily into when my feet were cool. Learned in grade school, way back in first part of last century, that other things contract/expand with cold/heat.

In the interests of being more exact, maybe all of us should start indicating the temperature of the bullet,s), at the time of making our measurements.

Maybe someone with the appropriate coeffecient of expansion/reference tables could give us say, out at the 5th decimal or beyond where some of you work, the affect on these bullets of, say, 40 degrees temperature difference between the "left coast" and the "right coast" a few weeks ago. Assume they are pure, solid copper or lead to get around the alloy/compound issue.

Again, I'm not quibbling with anybody's measurements, and they don't matter to me except how they may affect the bullet at the target. But it did, a few weeks ago, cross my mind that if I held the new bullets in my hand a while in my 55 degree basement, and they warmed up......and expanded....

Maybe Jason and Eric and whomever else gets some of the bullets I am sending them will tell us approx bullet temperature at time of measurement.

Frank

 

[jb1000br]

I can do the temp thing, but in the normal range,say we all measure them in the shop/basement/house at 60-80F) at the extremes, is temp something we need to worry about? will it even make half-a-tenth difference?

JB

 

[EricStecker]

I measured a 7mm 168 gr VLD to be .28435. I put this bullet into the freezer for two hours. After two hours the bullet measured .284275,keep in mind we use an indicating micrometer so the .000075 that is stated means the needle was between .00025 and .00030).

In the extreme cold of a freezer the bullet shrank .000075. This bullet returned to .28435 within 30 seconds.

Next I held the bullet in my hand for ten minutes. This is the best way for me to heat the bullet up without using the microwave as the temperature outside is the same as it is indoors. The bullet measured .284425,again the needle was between .00040 and .00045).

The heat from my closed hand increased the diameter .000075. This time it took the bullet nearly 30 minutes to return back to .28435.

I offer that bullets measured in an environment between 65 degree and 85 degree F will produce numbers that are comparable.

Regards,
Eric

 

[StephenPerry]

Eric
Walt teach you that process or did it fester in your brain while in Arizona. Young minds many ideas Stick you amaze me. Now let's get you back on the BR line. Visalia UNL/HV in June, share a bench with ya.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[jb1000br]

Eric, thanks for those numbers...plan didn't work out on the gage block...but I will find one.

The NEW 105 VLD's from Frank are in my hands...the "anomoly" ahead of the ogive is very noticable, but no detectable depth to it.

Will get back with numbers once I can verify my mic.

I will also run them head-to-head with an old lot once I settle on a load in my 6x47...

JB

 

[EricStecker]

All,

I received the bullets from Frank today. The diameter at the pressure ring is .24315. The diameter at the ogive is .2430. We will send the other unopened box to Scott Parker so that he can measure them as well.

In response to the concern over the anomaly on the ogive I have decided to have the die polished. We are making bullets now on this same die which measure .24355 at the pressure ring and the anomaly is gone. If you like fatter bullets,these are well within range) you will want to give this next lot a try.

Polishing the die meant that we shortened the die's life by about two million bullets. I hope that those of you who are interested in this situation give these bullets a fair test so that we can know if polishing the die to eliminate the anomaly and increase the diameter was worth the millions of bullets that we will not be able to make on this die.

I will be very interested in knowing whether or not the diameter makes a difference. This is about the best scenario we can create for testing as this is the same exact die with the only difference being the diameter. It is my opinion that the anomaly had no negative affect on accuracy other than the affect it may have had on one's confidence level,which can indirectly affect results).

Regards,
Eric Stecker