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COAL measurement and dimensional differences

I have several inserts from Hornady, Sinclair, etc. to measure the COAL. What is odd to me is that none of insert diameter are the same size as the bullet ogive at full diameter. My 6xc has a throat diameter of .2435" the bullets measure .243 or .2425 at the point of full diameter. I have done repeated test to identify exactly where the rifling touches a random sample of 20 bullets (DTACS). When I use the inserts to measure, they never seat on the same point as the rifling does. Some are over size and when measured with gauge pins, are the same diameter as my throat and the others are averaging .239 to .2395.
I would think it would beneficial to have the insert match the actual diameter of the ogive at the point of contact? I was looking at reamers to open the inserts up to the correct dimensions but before I buy a set for all the calibers I load for, I wanted to see if I am making a mountain out nothing?
 
First off, I believe you are referring to cartridge-base-to-ogive measurements (CBTO) rather than cartridge overall length (COAL). You are correct in that ideally we would like the caliper insert tool to seat at the exact point on the bullet ogive that first contacts the rifling. However, there are additional caveats to these measurements, the largest of which is often bullet length variance.

As shown in the cartoon below, any bullet nose length variance between the point at which the seating die stem contacts the bullet out near the nose and the point at which the caliper inserts seats on the ogive (i.e. "critical distance") will introduce variance into these measurements.

Bullet Dimensions.jpg

There are various approaches to mitigate the effect of these discrepancies. Sorting bullets using a tool such as BoB Green's Comparator (https://greensrifles.com/new-product-page), which allows sorting bullets based on the distance between seating die stem and caliper insert contact points is one approach. Because the majority of bullet OAL variance is usually found in the nose region, sorting bullets by OAL is kind of a poor man's approach to do what Bob's tool does. Taking the average of 5 to 10 bullet measurements is another way to let the statistics work in your favor. It may also be in your best interest to buy high quality bullets that exhibit the least dimensional variance.

With regard to load development, the distance between the point on the bullet ogive that first contacts the lands and the point where the comparator insert seats are typically much closer together than the seating die stem contact point much farther out toward the meplat. In fact, we typically act as though the land contact and caliper insert contact points are one and the same, even though they are not as you observed. One reason for this is that we can measure CBTO of a loaded round with a high degree of accuracy, typically .0005" to .001". Shooting loaded rounds whose CBTO is known very accurately will tell you what shoots well and what does not. Regardless of whether the caliper tool CBTO measurement is spot on with regard to bullet contact with the lands, or even a few thousandths off, you can still reproduce the CBTO in loaded rounds that gave the best actual test results with great accuracy, over and over again.

Further, we conduct incremental seating depth testing for the purpose of tuning the precision of a load. I generally use .003" increments, but others may use .005", .002" or whatever increment suits their desire. The point is that with sorted bullets and careful measurements, it is possible to generate loaded rounds with .005" to .001" CBTO variance. The limiting factor is really the precision of the calipers you're using and how consistently your loading setup seats bullets. If you are testing seating depth in increments of .003" then your loaded rounds need only have a CBTO variance of less than that in order that the CBTO variance is no longer the limiting source of error. For example, if you are testing seating depth in increments of .003" and you have .0015" CBTO variance, none of your loaded rounds should have CBTO variance as large as a single seating depth increment, meaning the seating depth test will still show you what you need to see. It's all about limiting sources of error, those we can measure, and more importantly, those which actually measurably affect precision.
 
First off, I believe you are referring to cartridge-base-to-ogive measurements (CBTO) rather than cartridge overall length (COAL). You are correct in that ideally we would like the caliper insert tool to seat at the exact point on the bullet ogive that first contacts the rifling. However, there are additional caveats to these measurements, the largest of which is often bullet length variance.

As shown in the cartoon below, any bullet nose length variance between the point at which the seating die stem contacts the bullet out near the nose and the point at which the caliper inserts seats on the ogive (i.e. "critical distance") will introduce variance into these measurements.

View attachment 1187236

There are various approaches to mitigate the effect of these discrepancies. Sorting bullets using a tool such as BoB Green's Comparator (https://greensrifles.com/new-product-page), which allows sorting bullets based on the distance between seating die stem and caliper insert contact points is one approach. Because the majority of bullet OAL variance is usually found in the nose region, sorting bullets by OAL is kind of a poor man's approach to do what Bob's tool does. Taking the average of 5 to 10 bullet measurements is another way to let the statistics work in your favor. It may also be in your best interest to buy high quality bullets that exhibit the least dimensional variance.

With regard to load development, the distance between the point on the bullet ogive that first contacts the lands and the point where the comparator insert seats are typically much closer together than the seating die stem contact point much farther out toward the meplat. In fact, we typically act as though the land contact and caliper insert contact points are one and the same, even though they are not as you observed. One reason for this is that we can measure CBTO of a loaded round with a high degree of accuracy, typically .0005" to .001". Shooting loaded rounds whose CBTO is known very accurately will tell you what shoots well and what does not. Regardless of whether the caliper tool CBTO measurement is spot on with regard to bullet contact with the lands, or even a few thousandths off, you can still reproduce the CBTO in loaded rounds that gave the best actual test results with great accuracy, over and over again.

Further, we conduct incremental seating depth testing for the purpose of tuning the precision of a load. I generally use .003" increments, but others may use .005", .002" or whatever increment suits their desire. The point is that with sorted bullets and careful measurements, it is possible to generate loaded rounds with .005" to .001" CBTO variance. The limiting factor is really the precision of the calipers you're using and how consistently your loading setup seats bullets. If you are testing seating depth in increments of .003" then your loaded rounds need only have a CBTO variance of less than that in order that the CBTO variance is no longer the limiting source of error. For example, if you are testing seating depth in increments of .003" and you have .0015" CBTO variance, none of your loaded rounds should have CBTO variance as large as a single seating depth increment, meaning the seating depth test will still show you what you need to see. It's all about limiting sources of error, those we can measure, and more importantly, those which actually measurably affect precision.
A very excellent description. I never seem to explain that so coherently, to those that ask me.
 
I think most of the inserts are close enough to the bore diameter that you probably wont see any change in precision between the stock inserts and modified. Using Neds cool "cartoon" above, the distance between the two blue arrows is what you are dealing with. If there is enough variability in the ogives between bullets in a given lot to measure a difference in comparative seating depths over that short distance I would get different bullets. It would be interesting though to open one insert up, leave one stock, and compare the differences in CBTO with each using a sampling of loaded rounds. If the difference is not a constant, then it may be worth the effort to open up your inserts.
 
While seating for a jump that work using the BTO measurement, like we all typically do. But when sorting bullets, instead of measuring BTO, I've come to measure from the base to where the seating stem makes contact. I use an insert that is the same diameter as my seating stem and found that this really helps me in getting consistent seating depth. I don't always sort my bullets if a sampling shows there's only a minor difference (like +/- .002). Otherwise, I'll sort them into groups of +/- .001. Typically, I've found that the BTO variance is very close to that seating stem contact variance, so my distance to the lands is pretty consistent too when I'm to a consistent seating depth.

My reasoning for this is that I feel minimizing case volume variances is more important to me than small variances in jump.
 
Thanks for the info. What I was seeing, and wondering was, say I have a CBTO dimension of X to hit the lands reliably and repeatably. I want to start my seating depth testing touching and then back off say .005" or .003" in each test group to what I find to be the deepest seating depth I am going to use (base of bearing surface at the bottom of the case neck. What I was noticing and why I looked, was that after seating, in a Tubb die on a Redding press, the loaded round looked like a different length over all. I would pull the bullet and measure it against the gauge bullet using the insert and they would be the same length or within what I would consider tolerance. But, thats when I noticed that the insert for the comparator was seating further down the ogive towards the meplat than the marks in the ink I used to see if I was just touching or pushing the ogive into the lands too far using the Stoney Point gauge.

So, my logic was, get a reamer and ream the insert hole to .2425-.2428 so it would measure closer to the very front of the bearing surface but not go over that point if the bullet was slightly undersized. This would bring the CBTO length closer to what the chamber is actually showing you as the beginning of the lands. Does this sound like chasing Alice down the rabbit hole?
 
To simulate the leade contact you would need a matching reamed barrel stub.
This, because throat angle affects contact point.

And Ned went over ogive radius & the relative nothing value in accurate measure here.
You only need to do testing and reconstruct tested best (with common tools).
 

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