Clicking Sound and Sticking Upon Bolt Lift

[msinc]

There is another cause of the "clicking bolt"...but first, in response to the last two posts, I understand and see how this would allow you to size the base a little smaller, it's a much longer die and you have plenty of room to not affect headspace {bump the shoulder.} What I am missing here is all the previous posts that advocate "grinding off the bottom of the resize die so you can run the case further up into it" no doubt it will allow you to reduce the diameter of the base...my question here is; and that does what to the headspace???? Are you not already sizing to bump the shoulder back to where it corrects headspace??? {AKA full length sizing} Or are all these rounds being loaded with a partial neck size in a full length die??? If so you shouldn't need to cut off the bottom of the die.
The other thing that can cause it is a galled spot in the chamber. This happens during chambering and is the result of either the reamer being fed too fast, the reamer not being cleared of chips often enough or the improper lubricant being used. It will look horrendous under the magnification of a good bore scope, but will only show up as a fine little bright stripe just barely noticeable on the side of the case. What is even worse is that most of the time it ends up very close to the junction of the shoulder and case neck so it goes pretty much unnoticed. If you see a bright stripe, and it is usually very thin, like a 64th of an inch or less, you can see it appears to be a raised spot in the brass under some magnification. The brass case flows out into the gall spot and has to be popped out when extracted.
If the smith that chambered the barrel doesn't inspect his chambers with a good borescope it is impossible to see this flaw until the rifle is fired and then you will see it on the side of the case. It can happen anywhere, even on the neck. I have had several chambers do this and not until I started using "Viper Venom" oil as a lubricant was I able to stop it. Stainless barrels do it worse or are more prone to it, but I have had several chrome moly barrels get the dread "stripe" as well.

 

[Wingnut00]

One more ZERO should be in there, .0005" or more preferably. Do the same fired measurements vs sized measurements along the whole body. I did have one, years back that gave clickers do to insufficient sizing up at the shoulder diameter. If everything checks out, then I would say you either have actual pressure, or possibly bolt handle timing that gives not enough primary extraction.

Tom

Tom
I agree I need one more zero in there. Problem is my shootin buddy borrowed my set of mic's so all I had at the time was my calipers. I will measure a bunch more when he gives them back. If bolt handle timing was the issue why would it work so well with a touch lighter brass. And in my case with lapua brass I get heavy click with as little as 47.5 of h1k and have ran Hornady brass up to 51.3 with zero extraction click and ejects as easy as freshly resized brass chambers. Some pressure but not extreme by no means. At 47.5 gr in lapua I have zero visible pressure so let me know what u think. Thanks.

 

[Joe Wade]

I am planning a 6-Dasher build and would like to avoid this problem.
After reading this post, it appears the root cause is a chamber that is too small at the base, like .472" diameter
(all thou, no one in this thread has published there reamer sizes).
Is it safe to say, using a reamer that cuts .473" or .4735" diameter at the base should avoid this and allow for the use of standard
dies?

 

[Tim Singleton]

I am planning a 6-Dasher build and would like to avoid this problem.
After reading this post, it appears the root cause is a chamber that is too small at the base, like .472" diameter
(all thou, no one in this thread has published there reamer sizes).
Is it safe to say, using a reamer that cuts .473" or .4735" diameter at the base should avoid this and allow for the use of standard
dies?

I think the dimension to look at is at the .200 line up from bolt face
Most guys I know with a Dasher go for .4708 at the 200 line

 

[dmoran]

I am planning a 6-Dasher build and would like to avoid this problem.
After reading this post, it appears the root cause is a chamber that is too small at the base, like .472" diameter
(all thou, no one in this thread has published there reamer sizes).
Is it safe to say, using a reamer that cuts .473" or .4735" diameter at the base should avoid this and allow for the use of standard
dies?

Joe -
A problem with going bigger is, it allows the brass to expand and stretch more, which can lead to looser primer pockets dimensions and shorter brass life. My suggestion is to measure intended new brass that will be used in the rifle, as it comes new, then spec your chambers to be no more then .003" bigger, and the sizing die to be at least .001" under the chambers spec.
Donovan

 

[DaveTooley]

It is always a clearance issue between the brass and the chamber. In a perfect world where the smith had the brass in hand and then had a matched pair of a chamber reamer and resize reamer for dies made to match the brass, tight chambers work. Unfortunately that's not the real world. If the rifle was in my shop I'd just polish out the chamber slightly. Then with new brass the click would go away.

 

[SenderoMan]

I have a ring die from Paul they do help
Ultimately it is my belief the problem is a reamer to brass mismatch. The small base or ring die is just a patch. The long term solution is a reamer that matches the brass you are using

Bingo! This was the solution to the bolt click in my rifle. It was a tight chamber made in the early 90's (i.e. made for Remington brass)that did not end up getting shot very much. Hand turned a reamer that was a couple thousandths larger in until it touched the shoulder and problem solved!

 

[teele1]

i had the same issue but i have one of gmac's ring dies and they work. I resize every piece of range brass first with this and then my Redding FL bushing die. I use it when extraction just starts to get difficult.

 

[Area51]

To the fellow who started this topic;
Harrel Precision
Whidden
Warner.
The Redding small base work very well when they are the one size fits all correct size.
Other wise have one of these guys make you the correct sized dies and use the Lapua Brass.
You are having a common problem.
For the size case you describe,
I suggest the Harrel Precision die, do what they say for the sample cases, you wont go wrong.
Regards,
Gary

 

[fguffey]

There is another cause of the "clicking bolt"...but first, in response to the last two posts, I understand and see how this would allow you to size the base a little smaller, it's a much longer die and you have plenty of room to not affect headspace {bump the shoulder.} What I am missing here is all the previous posts that advocate "grinding off the bottom of the resize die so you can run the case further up into it" no doubt it will allow you to reduce the diameter of the base...my question here is; and that does what to the headspace???? Are you not already sizing to bump the shoulder back to where it corrects headspace??? {AKA full length sizing} Or are all these rounds being loaded with a partial neck size in a full length die??? If so you shouldn't need to cut off the bottom of the die.

I do not know who said all of that; it was not me because my cases do not have head space. And then there is that other part; that would be the confusion about grinding the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die; I have not found it necessary. And then there is one more thing; how can a reloader make it all they way to the range with a rifle that has a chamber that is smaller in dimensions than the case?

Isn't there one person on this forum that can measure the diameter of a chamber and then compare the dimensions of the chamber with the dimensions with the case?

Again; my cases do not have head space, when I size the case I size the case to off set the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. The two differences do not equate to two head spaces. When I size the case I am going for clearance.

It helps if the reloader understands minimum length/full length sizing. It helps if the reloader understands the difference between go-gage length chamber and a minimum length full length sized case. The differences when working with the 30/06 type chamber is .005". The .005" is clearance; but when it comes down to all of the guys talking about their tight chambers no mention is ever made of the clearance.

F. Guffey

edit: I have not found it necessary (to grind the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die.

 

[msinc]

I totally get most of what you are saying Mr. Guffey and I agree. What I am not getting, {call me stupid here} is this: If your full length die is able to size the case to the exact same length as the chamber to bolt face {same dimension as you have said, no "space" involved} then how can you cut off the shell holder or bottom of the die to "size the case more" and NOT effect the length???? If the die is already setting the shoulder to the exact length you want how do you size the case more and not add "space" by shortening that shoulder length???? Seems like to me you would have to cut off {ream out} the shoulder of the die as well or it is going to bump the should back.
We might be getting down to splitting hairs here, but my experience has always been if a case is bigger than the chamber in diameter {not length} then it sticks...I never needed to measure to know when that happens. I think you might be talking about a very little amount, as in not enough clearance, maybe not a case that is actually bigger than the chamber??? If bigger it would not go in.

 

[XBBR Shooter]

I do not know who said all of that; it was not me because my cases do not have head space. And then there is that other part; that would be the confusion about grinding the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die; I have found it necessary. And then there is one more thing; how can a reloader make it all they way to the range with a rifle that has a chamber that is smaller in dimensions than the case?

Isn't there one person on this forum that can measure the diameter of a chamber and then compare the dimensions of the chamber with the dimensions with the case?

Again; my cases do not have head space, when I size the case I size the case to off set the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. The two differences do not equate to two head spaces. When I size the case I am going for clearance.

It helps if the reloader understands minimum length/full length sizing. It helps if the reloader understands the difference between go-gage length chamber and a minimum length full length sized case. The differences when working with the 30/06 type chamber is .005". The .005" is clearance; but when it comes down to all of the guys talking about their tight chambers no mention is ever made of the clearance.

F. Guffey

Guffy... you NEVER disappoint us. You are so predictable.

 

[fguffey]

If your full length die is able to size the case to the exact same length as the chamber to bolt face {same dimension as you have said, no "space" involved} then how can you cut off the shell holder or bottom of the die to "size the case more" and NOT effect the length???? If the die is already setting the shoulder to the exact length you want how do you size the case more and not add "space" by shortening that shoulder length????

I am not the one that grinds the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die. If I want to increases the presses ability to shorten the case length from the shoulder to the case head I raise the case head off of the shell holder deck with a feeler gage. There are times I have cases that have more resistance to sizing than my press can overcome. Reloaders assume; they assume the case is sized because the ram was raised. On my presses if the shell holder does not make it to the bottom of the die the case won.

And then there is that part about sizing the case body, when a reloader gets aggressive there is a chance the case will require removal with a stuck case removal tool. And then there is a lot of talk about sizing the case head with total disregard for the deck height of the shell holder. My shell holders have a deck height of .125" meaning I can guarantee the shell holder will prevent the first .125" of the cases head from being sized and then there is the radius and no one knows when sizing begins inside of the die. I will guess that will happen when someone makes a tool for that purpose.

F. Guffey

 

[mikecr]

Dave's post really summarized many concerns. In a perfect world the chamber & dies would match brass in-hand, and this can & should be done(where you can).
I've fully tested this with a wildcat project built -just to test this. And it works to mitigate need for any band aides.

I took a 100 random cases out of a batch of 5,000 & carefully measured every aspect of them. I set 1thou of clearance over these cases on my reamer print, and then improved shoulders, adjusted body taper slightly, and went tight neck for this. At .200 webline, I am +1thou over new brass. In preps I did a deep lead dip process anneal, so that cases would fully form quickly. They did form fast, 1 shot for bodies, 1 additional for improved shoulders(on very very thick brass)(26wssm imp). With this clearance, and sufficient barrel steel around the breech, the web area simply springs back to original dimension. That is, it never yields, so it never grows to interference fit.
I have over 30 reload cycles on these cases, and haven't and will never need to body size. I also fitted the necks(1/2thou), and do not size them at all. Never a re-anneal, zero trimming, pockets same as new,, these cases will last as long as I'm alive to shoot em.
My load is right at SAAMI max (by QL).

I don't compete, just did this for the learning & fun of it. I mention it here because I did learn, my perspectives are now very different than many folks. For instance; it's seems common belief that running out of clearance means it's time to add more clearance. Shade tree mechanics used to think the same..
This often stands without consideration that it was clearance to begin -> that caused the running out of it. In this case, that it led to brass yielding. And once brass yields, even once, like any bolt, it is never ever the same again.

 

[fguffey]

And then there is one more thing; how can a reloader make it all they way to the range with a rifle that has a chamber that is smaller in dimensions than the case?

F. Guffey

edit: I have not found it necessary (to grind the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die).

Guffy... you NEVER disappoint us. You are so predictable.

The questions was about a reloader getting to the range without knowing if his ammo will chamber or if the ammo is larger in diameter than the chamber and I also wonder if some or all of these problems are caused by bad habits?

Something like "My chamber is tighter than your chamber", and then someone says "I know how to fix that".

 

[JarheadAZ]

Just on the off chance that this one has little to do with the chamber/brass, just humor me and try backing out the front guard screw one turn and trying the extraction again.

Greg

PS BTW, my 'Handle' is JarheadNY, but I am now JarheadAZ

 

[dedogs]

Just on the off chance that this one has little to do with the chamber/brass, just humor me and try backing out the front guard screw one turn and trying the extraction again.

Greg

PS BTW, my 'Handle' is JarheadNY, but I am now JarheadAZ

Congratulations!!!

 

[jds holler]

I experienced this on my 6br with brass with multiple reloads. And I just experienced this yesterday with NEA Lapua brass for my factory Rem 40 XBR, chambered in 22 BR. Thanks.

I've got that same rifle in that same cartridge, (late seventies vintage), and experienced the same problem. After poking around for awhile, I found that the problem was indeed the case body diameter. Got a small base 308 die, and all was great.

But then--, a friend called me about some dies he had procured for this cartridge, wondering if I was interested. Price was too good to pass on another Redding full length sizer, same as I had (but different date/manufacturing code). I found that this die also fixed the problem. Can only assume that the tolerances allow for the die body diameter to vary by enough to make a difference.

It is conceivable that our two rifles were chambered by the same reamer if yours is also from that time. Mine has a .248" neck. jd

 

[BoydAllen]

Mikecr,
If you never need to body size, it is because you have a combination of a given pressure level, and if the WSSM brass is as I remember reading, extremely thick brass. As far as the pressure of your loads is concerned, the only way to know what that is is by using specialized equipment. Certainly a computer program can give you some idea, but there are too many variables, such as lot to lot variation of powder, and even the barrel itself that can have a major effect on chamber pressure.

PPC shooters learned a long time ago that if their chambers too small in the back that they end up with bolt click problems. With the brass that they use, and common load pressures they most have to FL size. I knew a fellow that neck sized but the reason that he got away with it was because of the lower pressure of his loads. As to neck clearance, the old fitted neck system of years past has been entirely abandened by top shooters because they found out that they got more consistent bullet release with more clearance, that required sizing of neck. One multiple world record holder that I know strives for about two and three quarter thousandth total neck clearance on his loaded round, although the exact figure iis not critical.

Some time back, a friend who had a Remington dimensioned 6BR chamber and wanted to switch over to Lapua brass, which was too large to fit his chamber. The existing chamber also required trimming the necks more than was convenient, since the Remington and Norma dimensioned chambers are different in their head to end of neck dimensions. At first he had his smith polish out the body of the chamber just enough so that new brass could chamber without any problem, but just enough, with the result that he got a tight bolt lift with loads that had not been a problem with the Remington brass. After that he had the chamber recut with a reamer that was designed for the brass that he wanted to use, and he could load to considerably higher pressure and velocity without getting a tight bolt. He did use a custom FL bushing die. Primer pockets were never a problem. They would hold beyond where bolt lift issues would show up, which was his limiting factor.

After that I worked with a friend on a project where I used the information that I had learned from my friends 6BR experience. It was a tight neck, shorter throated .300 Weatherby, with the throat length set so that 180 grain bullets could be seated into the rifling and still fit in the magazine. He was an is a meticulous reloader or I would not have taken on the project. My part was to come up with reamer dimensions an help with load development.

Given what I had learned about not having too close of a fit unfired brass to chamber, I ordered his reamer with factory chamber diameters near the head and at the shoulder. The bolt face to shoulder "headspace" was shortened considerably because the factory chamber had the brass blowing forward .021 on first firing. I limited it to .006. Of course the case headspaced on the belt for that firing.

We took the rifle and reloading equipment to the range for initial testing, and because of the short throat, started well below a top manual load, jumping up by half grains, with weighed charges, using a single case, measuring the belt diameter with a .0001 mic after every firing. The Weatherby brass is made by Norma, and was known to be a bit soft in its heads. We tested up to well over the manual limit, past where ejector marks showed up, to the point where the belt diameter increased slightly a second time. It increased on the first firing with no other signs of pressure and then did not change until the last test. The primer pockets were not a problem, although the fit did loosen slightly, there was no leakage. All sizing was done with a one piece RCBS neck die that gave perfect sizing with our turned necks, with a thousandth variation depending on whether the expander was used or not. As I said the same case was reloaded over and over, and after firing the last load, out of curiosity, after allowing the case to cool for a minute, I chambered it in the rifle to see if it was tight, it was not. The chamber was not a tight fit to the unfired brass in the body.

 

[mikecr]

Well pressure is definitely a factor to be considered in design, and so is runout to clearances.
My 26wssm load is 47.4 IMR4350, 139Laps, 28" barrel, 3025fps, ES <8fps. If you check around to get a feel for the pressure there, I'm sure you'll conclude that it's right near SAAMI max (65Kpsi). I know high pressure is relative to actual problem -vs- what you need. I tested up to ~3200fps(where FL sizing would be required). But this was hot, inaccurate loads, in a magnum diameter case. The brass is thick, I chose it for this, given the diameter, and I set the perfect capacity for 26cal(matching 260AI).

The point I'm making about cases left into interference fit on firing, is that it's because of brass yielding.
Ideally the brass would spring back more than the chamber walls it slammed into. But where brass expansion exceeds normal spring back, the brass yields. Once yielding occurs the brass structure(it's character) changes and some amount of spring back is changed. In fact, so much of it's spring back is lost to expansion yielding that chamber spring back becomes more than brass. Where chamber expansion/spring back is high at the breech end, and brass has yielded there, you get popping extraction from interference fit.

You can polish out the breech end of the chamber so that the interference fit doesn't quite stop normal extraction. But the yielding still occurred, and even increases with this(more clearance for the brass to expand to).
You can go very large in clearances, until at some point it would take very high pressures to expand thicker web area so much to reach chamber wall. But in 2-3 firings it reaches, and so you'll have to size it back down quite a bit from this point. So you can FL size every time, to prevent reaching this point. Sizing cycles add energy, adding spring back, but good luck sizing the primer pockets back.
Or you can continually replace the brass.

What's the life of 6PPC cases, with competitive loads, and big clearances, and all that small base sizing? My last poll at BRC showed 4-5 cycles. That's a tiny little case with a lot of barrel steel around it, but ~75Kpsi+ loads. It's the price for the advantages of that load, and I couldn't suggest resolution with adjustments to clearance alone. I'll of course concede to the experience of those competitive in 6PPC.

I'm speaking to hunting capacity cartridges, for LR hunting, or LR BR. Extreme pressure loads are not viable in these, but they can last the long run with a plan, and that plan is different than with tiny underbores used in PB BR.
I'm suggesting that we can prevent brass yielding to begin, here, with tighter clearances. A qualifier is cartridges of better reloading design,, shortest body for capacity, lower body taper, and higher shoulder angles. Basically, cartridges that are not locked into FL sizing and constant trimming, by design.

Of suggested better results using sloppy clearances? It's not better bullet release from necks. A trillionth of an inch is sufficient to fully release a bullet. And it's not assumed centering of anything, especially when those clearances were maintained with FL sizing.
IMO, it's simply clearing of chambered tensions present with high runout.
If they had not produced the runout, with all that sizing, due to all the clearances, and/or extreme pressures, they'd find that sloppy clearances are not needed for the same results. Straight ammo = fewer/lower chambered tension points.
I cannot think of a logical reason otherwise -that high clearances would help toward precision.
What I see is in every single test where someone compared high/low runout, finding no difference, they were running high clearances(that led to the runout).
This is exactly where runout wouldn't matter.
Well, except for case head cant from badly lapped lugs(that can cause chambered tensions no matter what).

The crowd does what the crowd does, without logic.
Got a better idea about it? Let's here logical reasoning(instead of anecdotes).