I just tried out the Palma brass and noticed the clicking. Had not used it before, but had no problems with the normal 308 brass. It could be the small primer, but don't have such issues with my 6x47 or 6.5x47 that both use ±38-39gr of H4350 and VV150 and the same CCI 450 primers. I'll try the BR4 and see if that cures it.
Click sound on 308 Palma brass
- Thread starter 6Dasher
- Start date
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
It would be interesting to drill out the flash hole in one case, increasing the size, by the smallest amount possible for each increase, and re-firing the case with the same load each time. Obviously, this would require loading at the range. If someone does this, I would like to know what the results were.
Hey Guys,
Sorry for the delay here, but I saw this thread while I was out in Raton this past week, and hadn't taken the time to post a response yet. Boyd (serving as my conscience) reminded me of this one this morning, so here goes.
We made the initial intorduction of the Palma cases some time back, and discussed the possibility of hangfires extensively when we first brought them out. The cases were purpose designed for Palma competition, with the direct input of several members of the US Palma team. To that end, the cases have worked flawlessly. At the same time, it needs to be remembered that Palma matches are almost always held in pretty decent (warm) weather, and generally using powders that ar of a mid-burning range in terms of speed. Varget, RL-15, N140 and similar numbers such as these, all of which are fairly easily ignited. In our catalogs and introduction literature, we made a specific point of warning about using these cases in cooler temps, or with large charges of slower burning powders which tend to be more difficult to ignite. The bottom line here is, the 308 Win is probably right at the upper limits of what can be reliably set off by a small rifle primer, and that depends on all the various factors being aligned in you favor. Start adding on a few negatives (hard to ignite powders, colder temps, etc.), and you'll likely start to see some problems arise. These are rarely going to be outright misfires, but are first going to be in the form of hangfires, accuracy issues and things of this nature. For situations requiring such loads, or usage in the colder temps, I'd strongly suggest using our conventional 308 Win cases with the large primer. That should eliminate the problems or issues I see being discussed here. Remember, everything was intended to be used within certain parameters, and the further we step outside those parameters the more likely we are to discover things, both good and bad.
Sorry for the delay here, but I saw this thread while I was out in Raton this past week, and hadn't taken the time to post a response yet. Boyd (serving as my conscience) reminded me of this one this morning, so here goes.
We made the initial intorduction of the Palma cases some time back, and discussed the possibility of hangfires extensively when we first brought them out. The cases were purpose designed for Palma competition, with the direct input of several members of the US Palma team. To that end, the cases have worked flawlessly. At the same time, it needs to be remembered that Palma matches are almost always held in pretty decent (warm) weather, and generally using powders that ar of a mid-burning range in terms of speed. Varget, RL-15, N140 and similar numbers such as these, all of which are fairly easily ignited. In our catalogs and introduction literature, we made a specific point of warning about using these cases in cooler temps, or with large charges of slower burning powders which tend to be more difficult to ignite. The bottom line here is, the 308 Win is probably right at the upper limits of what can be reliably set off by a small rifle primer, and that depends on all the various factors being aligned in you favor. Start adding on a few negatives (hard to ignite powders, colder temps, etc.), and you'll likely start to see some problems arise. These are rarely going to be outright misfires, but are first going to be in the form of hangfires, accuracy issues and things of this nature. For situations requiring such loads, or usage in the colder temps, I'd strongly suggest using our conventional 308 Win cases with the large primer. That should eliminate the problems or issues I see being discussed here. Remember, everything was intended to be used within certain parameters, and the further we step outside those parameters the more likely we are to discover things, both good and bad.
Hello Kevin,
Thanks for your answer.
As mentioned I am using N130 which is relatively fast for the 308, temps are around 25°C (77°F). I've also loaded 42gr of N135 with the same results (both using 155 scenars). Similar results in a different rifle but no problems with conventional 308 Lapua in either rifle. Both were using the 450 primer, so I can try to eliminate that factor by just loading BR4 or Russian PMC primers that I have.
Thanks for your answer.
As mentioned I am using N130 which is relatively fast for the 308, temps are around 25°C (77°F). I've also loaded 42gr of N135 with the same results (both using 155 scenars). Similar results in a different rifle but no problems with conventional 308 Lapua in either rifle. Both were using the 450 primer, so I can try to eliminate that factor by just loading BR4 or Russian PMC primers that I have.
SixDasher,
Your load and shooting conditions sounds like a combination that should be giving good results here, leaving the primer as the most likely culprit. I'd try a few different ones in there, with no other changes. One or more should make the hangfires go away, and from then on, that's your primer choice.
Beyond that, you might check firing pin springs for strength and/or wear. These should be replaced on a fairly regular (annual) basis, although I admit I'm pretty sloppy about this in my own rifles. Unless I see (or hear) a problem, I tend to leave them alone . . . as I suspect most of us do.
Keep me posted and let me know if this does the trick.
Your load and shooting conditions sounds like a combination that should be giving good results here, leaving the primer as the most likely culprit. I'd try a few different ones in there, with no other changes. One or more should make the hangfires go away, and from then on, that's your primer choice.
Beyond that, you might check firing pin springs for strength and/or wear. These should be replaced on a fairly regular (annual) basis, although I admit I'm pretty sloppy about this in my own rifles. Unless I see (or hear) a problem, I tend to leave them alone . . . as I suspect most of us do.
Keep me posted and let me know if this does the trick.
I had hang fires with wolf large rifle primers in my 308 using hornady match brass---- 40.3 gr of imr 3031 with 168 gr. bullet --- I loaded 10 rounds-- first 3 i shot were hang fires - took the other 7 home pulled the bullets and deprimed them ----
You have to REALLY SEAT those Wolf primers. They are great primers for me once I learned that you have to REALLY SEAT them. The anvil sticks up just a fuzz higher than most primers and when it hits the bottom of the primer cup of the case you think you have seated the primer. NO SO. You need to apply more force to let the cup of the primer hit the bottom of the case primer cup and compress the anvil down on the primer pellet.
This is about the Lapua Palma brass, Large Rifle doesn't fit in these unless you apply some real force 
Just from the range. Different primers don't really change anything. We had a competition yesterday where someone had a hang fire and incomplete burn, bullet got stuck in the barrel and a lot of unburnt powder (about 90%) inside his rifle.
I've compared notes with several shooters here and they all have the hang-fire issue (click of the pin, then a few ms later ignition). People are using different powders (VV N130/133/135/140/150 and primers 450/br4/205/205GM), so there does not seem to be one specific culprit.
This example kind of pushes it over the limit for us and we're telling people not to use the Palma brass in our competitions anymore as it is becoming a safety hazzard not to mention a PITA.
Perhaps Lapua should look into this as this brass is becoming more available to the masses.
Just from the range. Different primers don't really change anything. We had a competition yesterday where someone had a hang fire and incomplete burn, bullet got stuck in the barrel and a lot of unburnt powder (about 90%) inside his rifle.
I've compared notes with several shooters here and they all have the hang-fire issue (click of the pin, then a few ms later ignition). People are using different powders (VV N130/133/135/140/150 and primers 450/br4/205/205GM), so there does not seem to be one specific culprit.
This example kind of pushes it over the limit for us and we're telling people not to use the Palma brass in our competitions anymore as it is becoming a safety hazzard not to mention a PITA.
Perhaps Lapua should look into this as this brass is becoming more available to the masses.
Boyd,
I had read somewhere on this forum, where a fellow member also did that to his "Palma" brass. Taking a reamer and opening up the flash hole to .080, which did reduce his SD's and his verticale dispersion on the load. Also, it improved performance in cooler temps. I do this even with my 223 brass, reaming them to make it more consistant. I have found that reaming the flash holes on brass does improve down range results.
I had read somewhere on this forum, where a fellow member also did that to his "Palma" brass. Taking a reamer and opening up the flash hole to .080, which did reduce his SD's and his verticale dispersion on the load. Also, it improved performance in cooler temps. I do this even with my 223 brass, reaming them to make it more consistant. I have found that reaming the flash holes on brass does improve down range results.
I've never had a hangfire, or anything approaching one with the Palma brass in various combinations. I've used CCI-BR4 pretty continuously with it in a Barnard action rifle - may have just occasionally tried CCI-450 without problems either.
What I did find was that the MV spreads increased and averages decreased noticeably in UK winter ambient temperatures - ie around 2 to 5-deg C - with Viht N140 and N550. N150 seemed unaffected. Rerunning some tests in 10-12-deg C temperatures produced a large improvement. This is in line with what Kevin and Lapua say - good weather only usage advised.
Somewhat to my surprise, I found they worked exceptionally well with the only ball powder tried - H414 under a heavy bullet. This was a heavy case-filling load getting almost to 50gn and received wisdom is that ball powders are harder to ignite consistently than extruded types because of their heavy deterrent chemical coatings. I ran all tests using standard LR Lapua brass + F210M primers (I think, speaking from memory here) with the same loads alongside their Palma equivalents and in the H414 example, 'Palma' brass 100yd 5-shot groups were markedly smaller, likewise ES and SD values. To me, this experience counters the often produced opinions that the brass and small primers are only marginally effective for 308W size charges. I do think they are more sensitive though to various factors.
At the time of their introduction, there was a lot of input from 'old hands' with deep experience of the old small primer, small flash-hole, thin wall Remington UBBR brass in .308W loads, some on this forum, but a great deal more on the US Rifle Teams Long-Range Shooting Forum. There were mixed views about the genre in 308W, some saying they only got good results by drilling the flash-holes out to, or close to, the standard 0.080" dia. However, as in the BRs, PPCs, 6.5X47L etc, the small flash-hole is an integral part of the concept and enlarging them beyond a certain size may well prove counter-productive. This thin-wall brass will also use slightly larger charges too than today's Lapua having a larger internal capacity than even modern R-P and Winchester.
Throughout the US Rifle Teams L-R Shooting discussions - which ARE exhaustive and well worth finding and reading - the two US Palma Team captains were adamant that they and team members got worthwhile consistency improvements in the standard 155gn Sierra MK 40-odd grain H. VarGet Palma combination, only needing a small charge increase to counter a slightly reduced MV with any given charge weight. This included putting ammo into a freezer overnight and shooting it first thing the following day! I never tested this combination as I'm averse to spending money I'm short of on reinventing wheels. If these guys say that 155/VarGet works better in Palma rifles with Palma brass in the ambient conditions they shoot in both throughout a year of tests followed by team members using them in a large number of matches, well I'll take their word for it. Incidentally the initial tests used various SR Magnum primers and their report was all worked well.
Please don't think I'm 'knocking' correspondents' experience or refusing to believe their reports of ignition problems. I think this is a rather 'quirky' combination and may be powder / bullet weight sensitive. Personally, I think there is a place for the brass in long-range competition shooting as it can / does offer major benefits ..... but not guaranteed for ALL bullet-powder combinations in ALL conditions.
Also, I used a Barnard Model P in all my tests, and Fullbore / Palma competitors tend to use this, RPA, and similar single shot actions with small diameter firing pins. While I've never had a small primer / Palma case misfire or hangfire, I have had them with hard primer-cup military type ammo (UK Radway Green Arsenal 155gn 'Bisley Match'), and with old (1980s' vintage) factory Norma new primed cases which were a slightly loose fit on their first firing in this rifle. I do wonder if the SR primed case is also firing pin strike sensitive and that there may be too much of a good thing in some examples.
What I did find was that the MV spreads increased and averages decreased noticeably in UK winter ambient temperatures - ie around 2 to 5-deg C - with Viht N140 and N550. N150 seemed unaffected. Rerunning some tests in 10-12-deg C temperatures produced a large improvement. This is in line with what Kevin and Lapua say - good weather only usage advised.
Somewhat to my surprise, I found they worked exceptionally well with the only ball powder tried - H414 under a heavy bullet. This was a heavy case-filling load getting almost to 50gn and received wisdom is that ball powders are harder to ignite consistently than extruded types because of their heavy deterrent chemical coatings. I ran all tests using standard LR Lapua brass + F210M primers (I think, speaking from memory here) with the same loads alongside their Palma equivalents and in the H414 example, 'Palma' brass 100yd 5-shot groups were markedly smaller, likewise ES and SD values. To me, this experience counters the often produced opinions that the brass and small primers are only marginally effective for 308W size charges. I do think they are more sensitive though to various factors.
At the time of their introduction, there was a lot of input from 'old hands' with deep experience of the old small primer, small flash-hole, thin wall Remington UBBR brass in .308W loads, some on this forum, but a great deal more on the US Rifle Teams Long-Range Shooting Forum. There were mixed views about the genre in 308W, some saying they only got good results by drilling the flash-holes out to, or close to, the standard 0.080" dia. However, as in the BRs, PPCs, 6.5X47L etc, the small flash-hole is an integral part of the concept and enlarging them beyond a certain size may well prove counter-productive. This thin-wall brass will also use slightly larger charges too than today's Lapua having a larger internal capacity than even modern R-P and Winchester.
Throughout the US Rifle Teams L-R Shooting discussions - which ARE exhaustive and well worth finding and reading - the two US Palma Team captains were adamant that they and team members got worthwhile consistency improvements in the standard 155gn Sierra MK 40-odd grain H. VarGet Palma combination, only needing a small charge increase to counter a slightly reduced MV with any given charge weight. This included putting ammo into a freezer overnight and shooting it first thing the following day! I never tested this combination as I'm averse to spending money I'm short of on reinventing wheels. If these guys say that 155/VarGet works better in Palma rifles with Palma brass in the ambient conditions they shoot in both throughout a year of tests followed by team members using them in a large number of matches, well I'll take their word for it. Incidentally the initial tests used various SR Magnum primers and their report was all worked well.
Please don't think I'm 'knocking' correspondents' experience or refusing to believe their reports of ignition problems. I think this is a rather 'quirky' combination and may be powder / bullet weight sensitive. Personally, I think there is a place for the brass in long-range competition shooting as it can / does offer major benefits ..... but not guaranteed for ALL bullet-powder combinations in ALL conditions.
Also, I used a Barnard Model P in all my tests, and Fullbore / Palma competitors tend to use this, RPA, and similar single shot actions with small diameter firing pins. While I've never had a small primer / Palma case misfire or hangfire, I have had them with hard primer-cup military type ammo (UK Radway Green Arsenal 155gn 'Bisley Match'), and with old (1980s' vintage) factory Norma new primed cases which were a slightly loose fit on their first firing in this rifle. I do wonder if the SR primed case is also firing pin strike sensitive and that there may be too much of a good thing in some examples.
ES/SD don't even play into the problem we're having. Though the hangfires we have might explain that as this would also produce non-consitent burns with people not hearing the clicks.
Perhaps the batches we received in these parts have narrower primer holes.
Perhaps they built a US Palma-team detector into the cases
But whatever the issue, we are not imagining it.
Reading this... it makes you wonder why Lapua puts this into the market, knowing the issues with this brass.
I can try opening up the holes as a final option, but after that I am scrapping them and advising similar to our shooters.
Perhaps the batches we received in these parts have narrower primer holes.
Perhaps they built a US Palma-team detector into the cases
But whatever the issue, we are not imagining it.
Reading this... it makes you wonder why Lapua puts this into the market, knowing the issues with this brass.
I can try opening up the holes as a final option, but after that I am scrapping them and advising similar to our shooters.
Just back from the range.
I had made 10 cases original, 10 cases reamed up to standard small-rifle and 10 cases reamed up to LR flash hole size. Using BR4 on 155 scenars and 35gr N130. Temp was 14°C
Standard: 4 out of 10 with the hangfires
SR reamed: 3 out of 10
LR reamed: 1 out of 10
All groups shot around 1/3moa, so no difference in grouping (and no problems).
Although the larger hole does tend to improve ignition, it is still not 100%.
I had made 10 cases original, 10 cases reamed up to standard small-rifle and 10 cases reamed up to LR flash hole size. Using BR4 on 155 scenars and 35gr N130. Temp was 14°C
Standard: 4 out of 10 with the hangfires
SR reamed: 3 out of 10
LR reamed: 1 out of 10
All groups shot around 1/3moa, so no difference in grouping (and no problems).
Although the larger hole does tend to improve ignition, it is still not 100%.
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