Cleaning 6 mmBR

[RobinC]

Hi Guys
I'm new to this forum and from England and would like some advice from you guys who now all about 6 mm BR's.
This year my wife and I will be shooting 300 mt Prone ISSF competitions in England and Europe, we currently shoot prone .22 and palma style prone 7.62 (.308W) but have had 6 mm BR's built for us by Keppelers of Germany for the 300 mt events. For those not familiar with ISSF 300 mt it is a 60 shot prone match shot on ten ring targets.
I'm used to cleaning our target .308W's and would have cleaned the 6mmBR's the same with Hoppes no9, bronze brush, and patches. But I'm not sure if the procedures are any different for the 6 mm BR's. We will be initialy using factory Norma 105 gn Diamond line Moly coated ammo but I do also plan to reload.
1. Is there any special technique for cleaning?
2. Felts or Patches?
3. Do you use a bronze brush?
4. I have been told that if I use Moly coated bullets that I must keep using them and not change to another non lubed type as the barrel is permanatly coated, is this correct?
Any help would be appreciated,
Robin

 

[ShootDots]

Hi Robin and welcome to you! I shoot a 6mmBR extensively. However, I have never used MOLY or any other coated bullet for that matter in any of my rifles. So I can't remark from that perspective. But a cleaning regimen depends largely on what powders you intend to use. A VERY clean burning powder will not require a rifles bore to be cleaned as often as a "dirtier" powder does. Having said that, I use a clean burning powder AND a dirty powder in my 6mmBR. The clean powder "Varget" does not have to be cleaned after every match and only needs 1.) about 25 good strokes with a bronze brush; 2.) 3-4 "TM" solution soaked patches (or any other AGGRESSIVE Carbon attack solution) then; 3.) I use a STIFF "bore cleaning" nylon brush to scrub out the throat area; then 4.) 2 more patches soaked with TM Solution; then 5.) dry the bore... About every 400 rounds I "JB" the bore thoroughly... Keeps carbon from building. NOW>>> I also use RL-15 which is a much dirtier powder. I use the same regimen as above but after every match and EVERY OTHER match I "JB" my bore. Carbon will build up fast with a dirty powder. RL-15 is one of, if not the most accurate powder to burn in a 6mmBR (using 100+ grain bullets) ... I alternate between the 2 "at the moment".. We have a powder shortage going on here and I can NOT get either powder at this time. So since MY LOAD shoots with RL-15 about 70FPS slower than Varget with the same bullet, I use Varget for 600 yard F-Open and the RL-15 for 300 yard F-Open. Once we get back to normal, so I don't run out of either, I will strictly use Varget. Just remember Carbon is THEE killer of accuracy more so than any other element.

 

[fdshuster]

Robin: Hoppes #9 is basically kerosene and as such has no copper or more importantly carbon removing properties.

There are many good products more effective on copper than Hoppes. My choice happens to be Butch's Bore Shine. Others have their favorites.

For the tough to remove carbon I do not hesitate to use JB bore paste with a bronze brush, monitoring the results with my Hawkeye borescope, so I'm not guessing on the results. I can see how effective it is for me.

Ask 12 different active shooters how they clean their rifles and you'll get 12 completely different answers.

I have seen first hand that you cannot switch from moly to uncoated, back to moly, etc. etc. Choose one and stay with it. A guy shooting alongside me was going nuts with extremely poor groups at 200 yd. from a rifle of known accuracy. When I saw his ammo supply on the bench, noticed that he had moly & non moly bullet loads & he was mixing them up at random. He went home cleaned the rifle, came back with moly only & the rifle was back to it's usual 1/2 moa groups.

I tried moly coated bullets about 10 years ago. It did nothing for me, so stopped using it.

 

[rogn]

I dont have a 6br, but I do have a 22BR and a pair of 6X44L BRs . These are close enough.Many of the newer bore cleaners are good for both carbon and copper. Ive been having the best results w/ Boretech Eliminator, especially in the cold. A follow up w/ JB or Iosso on a nylon brush wrapped w/ apatch will help keep the throat clear of carbon rings. Ive come to the conclusion that bronze brushes should be use minimally or nor at all. You can demonstrate this by brushing the exterior of your barrel w/ the bronze brush-amazing how fast they scratch the surface of the metal. Ive taken to using tungsten disulfide coating( similar to moly w/ fewer side effects). This will usually get me 60 or more shots w/ no degradation in accuracy. Its also not as difficult to get out of the bore as moly. Another regimen that works well on clean running barrels is Kroil(Kano's Kreeping oil). A few soaked patches followed by a dry or sparsely oiled patch will easily clean an easy keeper. Most of the online sales in the US distribute Kroil.( Midwayusa, brunos shooters supply, Midsouth shooters supply. It can be purchased in bulk from Kano labs. I can't recommend anything about export shipping.

 

[hogpatrol]

I thought Hoppes #9 was mostly benzene. I have let it sit in a barrel overnight and the next a.m. gotten blue patches. My stock is a couple of old, large bottles and it makes me wonder if the formula has changed.

 

[GSPV]

I like BoreTech C4 ( http://www.boretech.com/products/carbonremover.shtml ) for carbon and SharpShootr PatchOut for copper ( http://www.sharpshootr.com/patchout.htm ).

Here is what I do. Lots of other things work.

1. Push 3 or 4 patches of C4 depending on how dirty they come out.
2. Brush with a nylon brush soaked in C4 a few passes. I don't do as many as most people recommend. I poke the brush out the end each time and spray it off with general purpose solvent.
3. I repeat 1 and 2 till the patches are clean.
4. At the end of the shooting day, I soak the bore thoroughly with Patch Out before heading home.
5. Once at home, I continue using the Patch Out with long wait times till there is no copper.
6. If, at any time, the scope shows the carbon ring begin, I attack it with Iosso and an over-sized brush.

Notes:

1. Every time the cleaning rod comes out of the bore, it gets wiped off with a paper towel.
2. I clean the rods thoroughly with general purpose solvent before I put them away.
3. I wear nitrile gloves when cleaning. You DO NOT want to get Patch Out on your hand, then wipe sweat off your forehead, eyes, etc.
4. I used to use Patch Out and Accelerator at the range. I no longer do this. The C4 does a good enough job on the copper while there.


That's just what I do. I'm certainly no expert cleaner or shooter.

 

[fdshuster]

hogpatrol: Won't get into the ingrediants of Hoppes #9, I'm no chemist & the ingrediants are not listed on the Hoppes label, but I have been told by those who are very knowledgable that it is basically kerosene. Maybe some other additives also, who knows except Hoppes.

But, while Hoppes #9 worked great for my handguns with lead bullets, for me it does nothing to remove copper & carbon, as verified with my Hawkeye borescope. Butch's will remove light copper fouling with overnight soaking, but heavy copper must be removed with a dedicated copper remover Like Sweets, Warthog 1134, etc.

For the really tough to remove carbon I find JB to be the quickest & easiest removal method. Just what works for me, others have their favorite products & methods also.

I would suggest you clean your barrel with Hoppes #9 to the point you would bet money that it is clean, then inspect the true condition using a borescope. You may be surprised, as many others have been when we inspected their bores after they swore they were clean. Only one of the many advantages of having a borescope.

 

[Shynloco]

Robin: Hoppes #9 is basically kerosene and as such has no copper or more importantly carbon removing properties.

There are many good products more effective on copper than Hoppes. My choice happens to be Butch's Bore Shine. Others have their favorites.

For the tough to remove carbon I do not hesitate to use JB bore paste with a bronze brush, monitoring the results with my Hawkeye borescope, so I'm not guessing on the results. I can see how effective it is for me.

Ask 12 different active shooters how they clean their rifles and you'll get 12 completely different answers.

I have seen first hand that you cannot switch from moly to uncoated, back to moly, etc. etc. Choose one and stay with it. A guy shooting alongside me was going nuts with extremely poor groups at 200 yd. from a rifle of known accuracy. When I saw his ammo supply on the bench, noticed that he had moly & non moly bullet loads & he was mixing them up at random. He went home cleaned the rifle, came back with moly only & the rifle was back to it's usual 1/2 moa groups.

I tried moly coated bullets about 10 years ago. It did nothing for me, so stopped using it.

I have to strongly agree with what fd just wrote. I too use nothing but Butch's Bore shine in my barrel's as well as using a bronze brush with JB past every fourth cleaning to make sure I've got all the copper out. I've had great success with that ritual and also will use a nylon brush down the barrel with Butch's when I'm changing powders just for testing purposes.

Good luck on you and your wife's shoots.

Alex

 

[RobinC]

Thanks Guys
There's certainly enough contrasting views there to give me some choices!

The European event we shall be shooting is a bit different to what you guys are doing which appears to be bench rest and possibly some F class.

We will shooting prone olympic style shooting and the match is a 60 shot match in 50 minutes so there is little time for cleaning during the match particularly at Bisley where the wind is very tricky and you need every minute to catch the wind.

We have still to shoot the new rifles, we planed to run them in and zero this week end but with temperatures of -5C we chickened out and spent the time indoors dry shooting on the scatt electronic!

 

[racesnake]

FYI....One of the main ingredients in Hoppe's # 9 is Amyl Acetate.

 

[hmcsr]

Another FYI:

From 2010 MSDS

SECTION 3 ! COMPOSITION / INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
ID INGREDIENT CAS NUMBER EINECS EU CLASSIFICATION % WT
1 Kerosene 008008-20-6 232-366-4 Xn; 65 15 - 40
2 Ethyl Alcohol 000064-17-5 200-578-6 F; 11 15 - 40
3 Oleic Acid 000112-80-1 204-007-1 — —
4 Amyl Acetate 000628-63-7 211-047-3 10-65 5 - 10
5 Ammonium Hydroxide 001336-21-6 215-647-6 N, C; 34-50 1 - 5

Red highlites are mine to show %'s.

 

[284 lapua]

Eliminator is what I use and you can get it here in the u.k. I also use Forest Bore foam to shoot the barrel in ( on Border Barrels web site )
I was shooting at the Imperial in f.class last year and couldn't believe how some of the young shooters clean !!! ( one patch 009 then in with bronze brush 4 or 5 times then patch out ) after cleaning with Eliminator that rifle was back to winning ways.
good luck you will love the 6 BR.

 

[Forum Boss]

ShootsDots wrote: The clean powder "Varget" does not have to be cleaned after every match and only needs 1.) about 25 good strokes with a bronze brush; 2.) 3-4 "TM" solution soaked patches (or any other AGGRESSIVE Carbon attack solution) then; 3.) I use a STIFF "bore cleaning" nylon brush to scrub out the throat area; then 4.) 2 more patches soaked with TM Solution; then 5.) dry the bore... About every 400 rounds I "JB" the bore thoroughly... Keeps carbon from building. NOW>>> I also use RL-15 which is a much dirtier powder. I use the same regimen as above but after every match and EVERY OTHER match I "JB" my bore. Carbon will build up fast with a dirty powder.

The following remarks apply to shooting with Naked (non-coated) Bullets--

Oh man.... Different strokes for different folks. But honestly, unless ShootsDots has a really bad finish on the inside of his barrel, this is a very aggressive regimen. "25 good strokes with a bronze brush"? Never seen that much brushing to be needed on ANY premium barrel.

"[With RL15] After every match and EVERY OTHER match I "JB" my bore".

As for the use of JB... there is plenty of evidence that if you "polish" your bore with a lot of JB or Iosso, you may actually increase the barrel's propensity to foul. Yes, yes, yes I know that lots of big name shooters have had success with these slightly abrasive creams. They have their place. But I caution, use them sparingly, and make sure you actually need to use the stuff.

I think if this guy just used a LOT of soaking wet patches and/or WipeOut after a match before the carbon sets up, he could get by with much less brushing and none of the JB'ng... at all.

Honestly, when I read about cleaning regimens like this I cringe. I wish I had equipment to video a borescope inspection. I'd show you the inside of my PacNor 6mmBR barrel after 900 rounds. No JB ever, no ammonia solvents, no bronze brushing ever. (In fact, a brush has never gone into the barrel). There is no copper fouling problem, no carbon build-up, and I shoot the same powders ShootsDots does: Varget and RL15.

I will readily admit that a PacNor 3-groove cleans up easily because the lands are wide and shallow. But I use the same procedure on a cut-rifled Brux: wet patches and Wipe-Out. After 200 rounds it has still not seen a brush, nor JB, nor any abrasive. The last group it shot was a 0.170" with four basically in one hole:

Actual size (on my monitor). Dime is 0.705" diameter.

Result like this (in a cut-rifled barrel) is why I advise people NOT to jump right in with a whole lot of bronze brushing, and aggressive sessions with JB. All that may NOT be necessary -- if you have a good barrel. Let your barrel show you how much cleaning (and what kind of cleaning) it needs.

Before you commit to sawing brushes back and forth in your barrel and trying various aggressive agents -- I suggest you experiment and find the least invasive bore-cleaning method that allows the barrel to perform at peak accuracy. You may find that "less is more".

And also remember that the amount of brushing and cleaning your barrel needs may change over time as the barrel round count increases. Likewise the number of shots in your course of fire (and the interval between shots) can make a difference in how bad the barrel fouls.

 

[T 700]

What do you guys think about Montana Extreme, I have used it. It works great, But the smell :'( :'(


T 700

 

[Forum Boss]

We will shooting prone olympic style shooting and the match is a 60 shot match in 50 minutes so there is little time for cleaning during the match particularly at Bisley where the wind is very tricky and you need every minute to catch the wind.

60 shots in 50 minutes is going to get many barrels out of their accuracy "comfort zone" with naked bullets, so I understand why you are considering coated bullets. I prefer the HBN (Hex Boron Nitride), but you can't find factory ammo loaded with HBN-coated bullets that I know of. David Tubb shot long strings of fire without cleaning very successfully. He used Moly and now he uses HBN. David told me that he would shoot 200+ moly'd rounds of 6XC without brushing, but would then "clean down to bare steel" after about 300 rounds.

It sounds like you won't have any time to clean at all, but one fast way to clean is to get a "Wash bottle" with a narrow spout that will go into the barrel from the muzzle. You can get a lot of solvent into the bore quickly, and then patch out with 5-6 dry patches. The real question is do you have enough sighters to get the barrel fouled in again.

 

[JBO]

ShootsDots wrote: The clean powder "Varget" does not have to be cleaned after every match and only needs 1.) about 25 good strokes with a bronze brush; 2.) 3-4 "TM" solution soaked patches (or any other AGGRESSIVE Carbon attack solution) then; 3.) I use a STIFF "bore cleaning" nylon brush to scrub out the throat area; then 4.) 2 more patches soaked with TM Solution; then 5.) dry the bore... About every 400 rounds I "JB" the bore thoroughly... Keeps carbon from building. NOW>>> I also use RL-15 which is a much dirtier powder. I use the same regimen as above but after every match and EVERY OTHER match I "JB" my bore. Carbon will build up fast with a dirty powder.

The following remarks apply to shooting with Naked (non-coated) Bullets--

Oh man.... Different strokes for different folks. But honestly, unless ShootsDots has a really bad finish on the inside of his barrel, this is a very aggressive regimen. "25 good strokes with a bronze brush"? Never seen that much brushing to be needed on ANY premium barrel.

"[With RL15] After every match and EVERY OTHER match I "JB" my bore".

As for the use of JB... there is plenty of evidence that if you "polish" your bore with a lot of JB or Iosso, you may actually increase the barrel's propensity to foul. Yes, yes, yes I know that lots of big name shooters have had success with these slightly abrasive creams. They have their place. But I caution, use them sparingly, and make sure you actually need to use the stuff.

I think if this guy just used a LOT of soaking wet patches and/or WipeOut after a match before the carbon sets up, he could get by with much less brushing and none of the JB'ng... at all.

Honestly, when I read about cleaning regimens like this I cringe. I wish I had equipment to video a borescope inspection. I'd show you the inside of my PacNor 6mmBR barrel after 900 rounds. No JB ever, no ammonia solvents, no bronze brushing ever. (In fact, a brush has never gone into the barrel). There is no copper fouling problem, no carbon build-up, and I shoot the same powders ShootsDots does: Varget and RL15.

I will readily admit that a PacNor 3-groove cleans up easily because the lands are wide and shallow. But I use the same procedure on a cut-rifled Brux: wet patches and Wipe-Out. After 200 rounds it has still not seen a brush, nor JB, nor any abrasive. The last group it shot was a 0.170" with four basically in one hole:

Actual size (on my monitor). Dime is 0.705" diameter.

Result like this (in a cut-rifled barrel) is why I advise people NOT to jump right in with a whole lot of bronze brushing, and aggressive sessions with JB. All that may NOT be necessary -- if you have a good barrel. Let your barrel show you how much cleaning (and what kind of cleaning) it needs.

Before you commit to sawing brushes back and forth in your barrel and trying various aggressive agents -- I suggest you experiment and find the least invasive bore-cleaning method that allows the barrel to perform at peak accuracy. You may find that "less is more".

And also remember that the amount of brushing and cleaning your barrel needs may change over time as the barrel round count increases. Likewise the number of shots in your course of fire (and the interval between shots) can make a difference in how bad the barrel fouls.

I couldn't agree more....

 

[Flouncer]

Bronze Brush and Steel

You can demonstrate this by brushing the exterior of your barrel w/ the bronze brush-amazing how fast they scratch the surface of the metal. Ive taken to using tungsten disulfide coating( similar to moly w/ fewer side effects).

In a word, no.

Copper or bronze is softer than Moly steel or Stainless steel. You are scratching whatever is crusting the outside of your barrel. Bluing, oxidation, or what ever. Or, the bronze is depositing on the steel, and it is mistaken for a scratch. It's like saying saying you can scratch your toe nail with soap. The hardness of bronze is 3, and soft steel is 4. I suggest someone take a bore scope and look at these "scratches" and report back. I have an e-mail from Douglas recommending bronze brushing. I use nylon simply because it doesn't give false positives for copper with my cleaner. I don't have any lofty shooting credentials but I can read and understand properties of materials. I mean this in a constructive way.

 

[Forum Boss]

Re: Bronze Brush and Steel

You can demonstrate this by brushing the exterior of your barrel w/ the bronze brush-amazing how fast they scratch the surface of the metal. Ive taken to using tungsten disulfide coating( similar to moly w/ fewer side effects).

In a word, no.

Copper or bronze is softer than Moly steel or Stainless steel. You are scratching whatever is crusting the outside of your barrel. Bluing, oxidation, or what ever. Or, the bronze is depositing on the steel, and it is mistaken for a scratch. It's like saying saying you can scratch your toe nail with soap. The hardness of bronze is 3, and soft steel is 4. I suggest someone take a bore scope and look at these "scratches" and report back. I have an e-mail from Douglas recommending bronze brushing. I use nylon simply because it doesn't give false positives for copper with my cleaner. I don't have any lofty shooting credentials but I can read and understand properties of materials. I mean this in a constructive way.

Look at the actual surface of steel with high magnification. It is not a uniform surface -- there are lots of tiny peaks and valleys. Aggressive use of bronze brushes WILL alter that surface, NOT just leave a deposit or remove some surface crud. How do I know this? I have a stainless S&W .22LR m617 revolver. Stupidly, I used a bronze brush to try to remove fouling and lead deposits on sections of the frame. I now have PERMANENT scratches on what were smooth and highly polished areas of the frame. These scratches did NOT come out with subsequent light polishing (with Flitz) and are surprisingly deep in the metal.

I am not saying that bronze brushes will ruin barrels -- plenty of guys use them with success. However, I know for a fact that bronze brushes (used aggressively) CAN scratch highly polished stainless. This is because the steel is not super-smooth like the surface of a cut, polished diamond. If you have a stainless steel pan in the kitchen, you can do the experiment yourself.

Having said this, I sometimes use bronze brushes and I am not concerned about "scratching" a shiny finish in the inside of the bore. I am more concerned about degradation of the crown through repeated brushing, and the cumulative changes to internal bore dimensions that can occur after a lot of aggressive cleaning. Gail McMillan observed that most really good barrels have a peak accuracy when new or near-new and this predictably declines over time. He opined that, if the barrel shoots best in new or near-new condition, then we should try to preserve the condition of the bore in its "young state". Anything which changes internal dimensions, or rounds off the lands (etc.) can alter accuracy, usually for the worse, according to McMillan.

 

[Forum Boss]

Donovan, as I said in my post, I am NOT concerned about a few small scratches in the inside of the bore -- rather cumulative degradation over time. I posted in response to the old wives' tale that says a bronze brush can't possibly make marks in stainless steel -- well it can (when used aggressively), and anyone can do the experiment themselves. As you say, however, shallow scratching of the surface layer of the bore is not the real issue to be concerned with....

 

[Flouncer]

Dirty brush Forum Boss