Check out this video of the Church shooting in TX this morning.
- Thread starter Mulligan
- Start date
After studying the video numerous times since Sunday, it's sad and impressive, and we can learn a lot from it.
When it goes bad, it goes bad quick.
The person closest to the shooter appears to have froze. Had he charged at first sight of the weapon, he may still be alive.
The second closest person admirably attempted to take action but was carrying his pistol in a manner that obviously exposed his intent to the shooter while trying to access it, the concealment location was entirely too obvious and slow to access for a situation that required stealth and split second reaction time.
The third person was afforded time by the distraction of the others, was well practiced and prepared, and delivered a very impressive shot that most likely saved numerous lives in the situation.
I've carried since 1984, typically on my side wearing clothing that always allowed quick access. In winter conditions it's easy to compromise accessibility for comfort/convenience.... placing emphasis on situational awareness and luck.
I'm constantly evaluating my carry habits, clothing, comfort, fire power for the application, etc. I've carried numerous platforms over the years. The current rotation is a Para Ordnance P12 double stack .45 12+1 w/ 2 spare mags in a Galco shoulder rig, SIG P230 X-Carry w/ Romeo optic in a paddle holster, and a SIG P365 12+1 in a paddle holster or pocket w/ spare mag in weakside pocket. Out of convenience I carry the P365 the majority of the time as it's accuracy and capacity can cover most situations IMO. It's accuracy and recoil management is surprisingly close to the X-Carry.
After years of using the shoulder rig I feel it always allows the most comfort and carrying capacity, ease of access, and best concealment options, understanding an over garment of some sort is required.
I type all this hoping you'll up your situational awareness and evaluate your own carry setups and practice/training habits.
What if the gentleman who lost his life trying to access his weapon had been carrying in a shoulder rig? Would he have possibly been able to access his weapon without drawing attention quickly enough to get off a shot?
There wasn't a good leather shoulder holster rig available for the P365, this shooting prompted me to search again..... I ordered a Falco shoulder rig w/ double mag pouch tonight.
This video at the expense of the victims is exceptional material to learn from. Think about how it could apply to you in your daily lifestyle. If you carry, make it a point to practice realistic scenarios on a regular basis.
When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
When it goes bad, it goes bad quick.
The person closest to the shooter appears to have froze. Had he charged at first sight of the weapon, he may still be alive.
The second closest person admirably attempted to take action but was carrying his pistol in a manner that obviously exposed his intent to the shooter while trying to access it, the concealment location was entirely too obvious and slow to access for a situation that required stealth and split second reaction time.
The third person was afforded time by the distraction of the others, was well practiced and prepared, and delivered a very impressive shot that most likely saved numerous lives in the situation.
I've carried since 1984, typically on my side wearing clothing that always allowed quick access. In winter conditions it's easy to compromise accessibility for comfort/convenience.... placing emphasis on situational awareness and luck.
I'm constantly evaluating my carry habits, clothing, comfort, fire power for the application, etc. I've carried numerous platforms over the years. The current rotation is a Para Ordnance P12 double stack .45 12+1 w/ 2 spare mags in a Galco shoulder rig, SIG P230 X-Carry w/ Romeo optic in a paddle holster, and a SIG P365 12+1 in a paddle holster or pocket w/ spare mag in weakside pocket. Out of convenience I carry the P365 the majority of the time as it's accuracy and capacity can cover most situations IMO. It's accuracy and recoil management is surprisingly close to the X-Carry.
After years of using the shoulder rig I feel it always allows the most comfort and carrying capacity, ease of access, and best concealment options, understanding an over garment of some sort is required.
I type all this hoping you'll up your situational awareness and evaluate your own carry setups and practice/training habits.
What if the gentleman who lost his life trying to access his weapon had been carrying in a shoulder rig? Would he have possibly been able to access his weapon without drawing attention quickly enough to get off a shot?
There wasn't a good leather shoulder holster rig available for the P365, this shooting prompted me to search again..... I ordered a Falco shoulder rig w/ double mag pouch tonight.
This video at the expense of the victims is exceptional material to learn from. Think about how it could apply to you in your daily lifestyle. If you carry, make it a point to practice realistic scenarios on a regular basis.
When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
I agree with your first statement but don’t believe the second one is backed up by any supporting data.
This guy was a Caucasian Christian American, like many of these shooters. Can we just admit crazy is crazy and stop trying to find blame elsewhere. It’s mental illness.
Believe is the key word. I actually got that information from a very good source. I will research it even more. Mental health yes I worked in part of that field for 23 years but as stated before morality and loss of vision. Mental health is much deeper than mental health.
This guy was a Caucasian Christian American, like many of these shooters. Can we just admit crazy is crazy and stop trying to find blame elsewhere. It’s mental illness.
Believe is the key word. I actually got that information from a very good source. I will research it even more. Mental health yes I worked in part of that field for 23 years but as stated before morality and loss of vision. Mental health is much deeper than mental health.
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
I think it would be great if you started a thread specifically about carry options
I had noticed as I’m sure everyone has the second gentleman having a hard time trying to access his weapon
NorCalMikie
Gold $$ Contributor
FACT!! The shooter had his mind made up. Nothing you could do to sway him from his task. No NORMAL person would act like that, unless you pray to ALLAH. Those that do are not NORMAL,IMHO.
That guy deserves a CM of Honor for his calm perfect performance , saving who knows how many lives. Other churches should take heed immediately.
Another fact and something that has not been discussed here is that there was a breakdown in the system.
This guy, it is reported, had been previously judged as mentally incompetent to stand trial in another state on another trial. How he got a hold of the shotgun I don't know but if it was retail it should not have happened. Just like the issue in Sutherland Springs, information was not properly communicated.
As hunter said above crazy is crazy.
If this was to be some massacre it would have been different and executed differently.
I notice something in watching the video time and time again. There is hesitation on the shooters part. Look at Sutherland Springs that was a bad deal and the guy was wanting to kill period.
Here, The shooting began when the guy stood up. I may be wrong but feel there is another component.
I think the whole thing in his warped mind was a hold up. He wanted money for his drug habit. He wanted the offering or rob the members. All he wanted was drugs for his habit.
He was mad the church fed him but refused to give him money. It is reported in San Antonio the shooter supposedly became increasingly upset his demands for cash was not fulfilled.
I think again crazy is crazy and he was unstable period and judging by his prior history and reported family history there is some genetic predisposition.
As been noted above this whole thing has made me think and evaluate myself. It was a wake up call. We all need to wake up!! We all need to evaluate.
As someone else mentioned the woman calling out was chilling to the bone and is haunting me with her grief. I pray for her and her family.
One more thing the 6 degrees separation thing. It ends up the man who was standing up and was killed was a friend of a friend to my Son. My Sons friend looked up to the guy as a close family member. The effects of something like this is far reaching.
May God bless us all
This guy, it is reported, had been previously judged as mentally incompetent to stand trial in another state on another trial. How he got a hold of the shotgun I don't know but if it was retail it should not have happened. Just like the issue in Sutherland Springs, information was not properly communicated.
As hunter said above crazy is crazy.
If this was to be some massacre it would have been different and executed differently.
I notice something in watching the video time and time again. There is hesitation on the shooters part. Look at Sutherland Springs that was a bad deal and the guy was wanting to kill period.
Here, The shooting began when the guy stood up. I may be wrong but feel there is another component.
I think the whole thing in his warped mind was a hold up. He wanted money for his drug habit. He wanted the offering or rob the members. All he wanted was drugs for his habit.
He was mad the church fed him but refused to give him money. It is reported in San Antonio the shooter supposedly became increasingly upset his demands for cash was not fulfilled.
I think again crazy is crazy and he was unstable period and judging by his prior history and reported family history there is some genetic predisposition.
As been noted above this whole thing has made me think and evaluate myself. It was a wake up call. We all need to wake up!! We all need to evaluate.
As someone else mentioned the woman calling out was chilling to the bone and is haunting me with her grief. I pray for her and her family.
One more thing the 6 degrees separation thing. It ends up the man who was standing up and was killed was a friend of a friend to my Son. My Sons friend looked up to the guy as a close family member. The effects of something like this is far reaching.
May God bless us all
skeeljc
Gold $$ Contributor
Don't you wonder what the shooter said to the second person he shot when he walked back to him? He moved back to the man and asked him something. The man then pointed to something or someone in the back of the church just before the shooter pulled out his shotgun. The shooter then began to back up and fired only when he saw the other man stand and draw his handgun. Then he shot the man he had talked to and turned 180 degrees and walked towards the front of the church.
The shooter might have had something else in mind besides just shooting people.
God must have helped direct the bullet that killed the shooter instantly. That was an extremely difficult shot in a live fire situation. Thank God there was a professional person there to respond.
The shooter might have had something else in mind besides just shooting people.
God must have helped direct the bullet that killed the shooter instantly. That was an extremely difficult shot in a live fire situation. Thank God there was a professional person there to respond.
snert
Silver $$ Contributor
It is one thing to be prepared to take the shot (Kudos to the guy who made a GREAT shot). It is quite another thing to be prepared to confront/interview/obstruct a guy that is OBVIOUSLY not right.
So we have a guy dressed in inappropriate clothing for the weather, wearing a wig and a fake beard, standing up and sitting down several times, exuding pre-attack behaviors and he (according to the surviving responders) drew the attention of the "team" enough that one guy moves to the pew along the wall (first to die) to watch him. The surviving responder moves to a position he can watch. But no one overcomes the social difficulty of confrontation. No one "makes a scene". No one is "unwelcoming". No one calls out whacko behavior. No one risks being called a racist, a bad Christian, a jerk. This dude is instead allowed in, never questioned, never dissuaded. Instead he is allowed to chose his place to launch his (pathetically non-tactical) attack and in the first two instances wins hands down. Even when he is aggressively confronting that poor usher (shot 2nd) the first team member sits there and motions to him, "send him over to me". These guys were brave, no doubt! But they were NOT up to the task of dealing with a very real murder scenario.
A say it again...this gunfight was lost ten minutes before it began.
Imagine that this team spent three times the effort they did learning to shoot and put it in scenario based training in response to "wierd" situations.
Imagine that in the foyer the team members recognize the weirdness, radios to other team members and they engage the guy. One stops his movement by placing himself in the wacko's path. He engages the guy in conversation, pointedly asking him his name and business. After all, we are welcoming here at this church and we want to meet everyone, right? Two others cover. A fourth notifies 911 for LE response to suspicious person. Imagine someone tells whacko to keeps his hands clear and tells him to leave. (Who the heck can miss a fake wig and crazy eyes, much less an 18 to twenty-four inch shotgun when standing at bad breath distance??) Come on, we go to great lengths to hide our concealed firearms and this guy basically gets into church with a broomstick in his pants! Imagine he refuses and goes for his shotty. Three guys tackle his azz before he gets that gun outta concealment and they control his arms and head. Disobeying a direct order from security, especially a move to grasp a hidden but obvious item from under clothing should result in a Habeus Grabus! Another good guy holds his 1911 to bad guys ear when the wrestling team starts yelling "gun". Attendees scatter and either bad guy complies or contact zero shot re-scrambles his brain-pan. Training, training training!!
Not every situation requires a gun as first response. Against a gun being used, a gun response is very necessary. But no one in a security team should overlook contact/cover, communication, body language indicators, scenario training and verbal skills, much less ground fighting and physical control. In my career I had justification to shoot people numerous times. I never did. But I can tell you for every time I coulda, there were hundreds of times physical control was necessary, and thousands upon thousands of times where verbal skills, tactics and willingness to boldly step up and confront stopped bad crap before it went to a shoot.
So we have a guy dressed in inappropriate clothing for the weather, wearing a wig and a fake beard, standing up and sitting down several times, exuding pre-attack behaviors and he (according to the surviving responders) drew the attention of the "team" enough that one guy moves to the pew along the wall (first to die) to watch him. The surviving responder moves to a position he can watch. But no one overcomes the social difficulty of confrontation. No one "makes a scene". No one is "unwelcoming". No one calls out whacko behavior. No one risks being called a racist, a bad Christian, a jerk. This dude is instead allowed in, never questioned, never dissuaded. Instead he is allowed to chose his place to launch his (pathetically non-tactical) attack and in the first two instances wins hands down. Even when he is aggressively confronting that poor usher (shot 2nd) the first team member sits there and motions to him, "send him over to me". These guys were brave, no doubt! But they were NOT up to the task of dealing with a very real murder scenario.
A say it again...this gunfight was lost ten minutes before it began.
Imagine that this team spent three times the effort they did learning to shoot and put it in scenario based training in response to "wierd" situations.
Imagine that in the foyer the team members recognize the weirdness, radios to other team members and they engage the guy. One stops his movement by placing himself in the wacko's path. He engages the guy in conversation, pointedly asking him his name and business. After all, we are welcoming here at this church and we want to meet everyone, right? Two others cover. A fourth notifies 911 for LE response to suspicious person. Imagine someone tells whacko to keeps his hands clear and tells him to leave. (Who the heck can miss a fake wig and crazy eyes, much less an 18 to twenty-four inch shotgun when standing at bad breath distance??) Come on, we go to great lengths to hide our concealed firearms and this guy basically gets into church with a broomstick in his pants! Imagine he refuses and goes for his shotty. Three guys tackle his azz before he gets that gun outta concealment and they control his arms and head. Disobeying a direct order from security, especially a move to grasp a hidden but obvious item from under clothing should result in a Habeus Grabus! Another good guy holds his 1911 to bad guys ear when the wrestling team starts yelling "gun". Attendees scatter and either bad guy complies or contact zero shot re-scrambles his brain-pan. Training, training training!!
Not every situation requires a gun as first response. Against a gun being used, a gun response is very necessary. But no one in a security team should overlook contact/cover, communication, body language indicators, scenario training and verbal skills, much less ground fighting and physical control. In my career I had justification to shoot people numerous times. I never did. But I can tell you for every time I coulda, there were hundreds of times physical control was necessary, and thousands upon thousands of times where verbal skills, tactics and willingness to boldly step up and confront stopped bad crap before it went to a shoot.
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Those are great points Snert. I appreciate someone with your training and real life experiences speaking up.
He expected to get shot in the church that day. I doubt he planned a mass shooting. He provoked attention of armed individuals before he started shooting. He didn’t shoot randomly. His drawing attention to himself guaranteed he would not get many shots off. He didn’t spray buckshot across pews of people and he didn’t pick a high capacity weapon.
I don’t believe he planned a robbery for a drug fix. He could have pawned or sold the shotgun for many fixes.
If he felt rebuffed by the church, desperately worthless and was severely mentally ill as noted above, then he may have planned to make his way forward and shoot himself in front of people he was upset with, if he was unsuccessful at escalating his idea of going out in a blaze of glory.
brokeasajoke
Silver $$ Contributor
We discussed this incident at our church where I am a deacon. Being a small church funds are not great but we have discussed doors that are locked from the outside and always unlocked on the inside, cameras at each door as well as memeber placement. With that is also some firearms competency evaluation. There are 7 of us who are regularly armed at church. Our biggest. concern is a passthrough or accidentally hitting someone else. Only 2 persons carry a weapon capable of engagement at a distance (45acp glock carried by ex state trooper and a .357mag) all others are small personal (get off of me) pistols. One 380 and two 9mm one of which resides in pastors office but he is minimum 10sec away. Snert was correct in that this could have been prevented. The idea of a 12ga full of non lethel has been kicked around. The sound guy is closest to the door and would have it but the nursing/changing room is between his and the foyer. We actually had an incident where a guy came in and approached the sound guy asking for help and money and he gave him $30 in his pocket. Told him to wait till end of service and then we might could do more for him. He said "churches won't help anybody nowadays" and left. Sound guy locked the door behind him and minutes later someone tried to get back in. That was the last of that but there had been a couple of murders a few days earlier so who knows. One cannot be over prepared not things like this only but for many things in life
DngBat7
Silver $$ Contributor
At our church we had a member of local law enforcement come and show the weak points and strategic points. Also a federal law enforcement member gave us a written plan. It was all very helpful from a tactical standpoint. But, I would say, those who carry at church should be well trained and ready for that type of situation or it could quickly become a bigger mess with people shooting in all different directions. Most people who carry have no tactical training what so ever. I would venture to say the church should sponsor or pay for tactical training for those officially allowed to carry in the building. In the video, you can plainly see how that mans training paid off and saved many lives.
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Link
Silver $$ Contributor
In NY CC is just that, CC . I'm glad I have never had to hide a weapone from everyone then access it in seconds. ;[
Bought one of these today. 22mag. It was a little of an embarrassing experience. Like buying small condoms. Mike
Haha. Not.Yeah, I can’t relate
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