Chasing The Spotter

[XTR]

XTR,

By your forum name X TR, I'm going to guess that you used to shoot with a sling. If this is the case then you have to let go of your sling shooting mind set. It's a new day and a new discipline. F Class still doesn't have any standard format. Depending on where or what country you compete in, there are different rules. Some string shoot and some shoot up to three to a target and alternate shots. Now, if you want to shoot Old School, go to Canada and really test your marksmanship.

I see a day when electronic targets are used with a screen delay to simulate the time it would have taken to mark a target. Most of the current older shooters won't live long enough to see F Class become and Old School discipline.

You'd be wrong. I've been XTR at online forums since the mid 90s when I was racing Mountain Bikes and I picked the handle from the Shimano XTR groupos that I used. I also use it on the boards that I own and am the administrator. There are a lot of people who know me by that handle on the web so I've kept it, though I've had thoughts of changing it on the shooting forums because of the number of misconceptions that it could create.

I'm pretty much a pure F-TR shooter. I've never participated in sling and irons shooting at long range and have no desire to. I'm a big advocate of the sport including writing articles for our Club (ORSA) newsletter, putting up a web forum just for guys to schedule practices at our range and helping with shooting clinics. I also disagree that there is no format. F class is a subset of HP and the formats are defined in the NRA rulebook and to date are pretty much the same. The matches I shot at the Nationals at Raton and at Camp Perry last yr were not significantly different to the matches that I shoot every month at ORSA. Shooting 2 or 3 to a target is not new, it's still a variation on what's been done for a hundred yrs in HP.

I don't have a problem with electronic scoring, as long as it doesn't completely change the sport. I'll say again, look at any conversation that compares F class and BR and the one thing that jumps out in the first couple of sentences is that F class is different because it takes us longer to shoot the string so you have to read wind vs machine gunning in a group. If the electronics are real time, with no delay, and the target is never moved then the strategy of F class is identical to BR just for a longer string.

 

[kiwial]

maybe a poll on this issue would be interesting for just interests sakes. i have never done 3 to a target shooting but sounds like fun to me.
my vote would be to keep wind reading the major component to f class style shooting

 

[Bindi2]

You dont need a poll or go to Bisley type shooting. If the perfect scores become too common ( the gear is getting better) downsize the X ring. The younger you are the faster you are the older you are the slower you are to do the same thing why penalise the young shooter smaller X ring makes them both work harder and is equal to both.

 

[kiwial]

i dont think too many perfect scores will be a problem when each individual shot needs to be evaluated.
the cream will always rise to the top after a day or two of competition. what interests me is, when it is considered normal to rattle off the 10-20 shots in 2-3 minutes on electronic targets are we cheating ourselves of the main experience that separates f from benchrest.
maybe we can program in the odd bad pit service randomly in the etargets to really stimulate the true fclass experience ;D

 

[Bindi2]

i dont think too many perfect scores will be a problem when each individual shot needs to be evaluated.
the cream will always rise to the top after a day or two of competition. what interests me is, when it is considered normal to rattle off the 10-20 shots in 2-3 minutes on electronic targets are we cheating ourselves of the main experience that separates f from benchrest.
maybe we can program in the odd bad pit service randomly in the etargets to really stimulate the true fclass experience ;D

You dont need to programme anything into the programme to offset the possible speed shooter. One thing with ETs is more ranges can be shoot on the day and that is not a bad thing more practice.

 

[FroggyOne2]

Still would like to see F/Class shot with irons in the overall agg..

 

[Bamban]

There is something to be said about how they shoot fullbore in UK, 2 or 3 on the mound, one scoring, one shooting and the other waiting to shoot in the case of 3 shooters. Shooters can't choose their condition to shoot in, there is time limit to break the shot. Read the wind, suck it up, make the correction and shoot.

In one of my business trips to Scotland back in 98 I had the opportunity to shoot in Blair Atholl, that was when I was introduced to multiple shooters on the mound, I have to admit, after the first day of getting used to it, I actually enjoyed it, the format suits my style of shooting - click and shoot.

 

[boogershooter]

I am new to this sport and just looking at it without a narrow mind but , If you really want to test wind/condition reading skills why use pit service ,or a spotter at all, just shoot your 20 string without either and see what you end up with! Someone already said it here "this sport will continue to evolve" and there will be those that don't like it and want you to be like them, and others who will welcome newcomers with a smile.

 

[FroggyOne2]

Oh I am sure that there will be changes in the future, but anyone that knows, the NRA is slow to change.

 

[PALarson]

I doubt if it will ever come to pass, but it is irritating that we must shoot irons in order to be in the pot, where as the F Class people don't have a similar demand. The reason I bring it up is my right eye has a condition called Macular Pucker and I cannot see the target numbers at 1000 with my right eye. I am building offset sights in order to shoot with my left eye with irons. Much more difficult than just shooting over the barrel with the right eye. I guess that I could go over to F, but it's not my thing.
Paul Larson

 

[FroggyOne2]

If you happen to know Therin King, talk to him about off set sight mounts. He knows a lot about that.

 

[PALarson]

I would like a connection to him, it's a new world for me, I was shooting off hand the other day, doing well went to sitting and forgot to keep the bubble in the middle and was shooging 7's. It's over 2 inches off of center and even the slightest cant goes wild.
Paul

 

[Hombre0321]

I am new to this sport and just looking at it without a narrow mind but , If you really want to test wind/condition reading skills why use pit service ,or a spotter at all, just shoot your 20 string without either and see what you end up with! Someone already said it here "this sport will continue to evolve" and there will be those that don't like it and want you to be like them, and others who will welcome newcomers with a smile.

The trouble with this approach is F-Class then really becomes Prone Benchrest, so to speak. This is the way Long Range Benchrest is shot today ( no spotter disc ). One of the attractive aspects of F-Class is the feed back from the target, do away with that and you will have a complettly different sport all together. This would not be just a change to F-Class it would be doing away complettly with F-Class and replacing it with another shooting game.

Roland

 

[Hombre0321]

i dont think too many perfect scores will be a problem when each individual shot needs to be evaluated.
the cream will always rise to the top after a day or two of competition. what interests me is, when it is considered normal to rattle off the 10-20 shots in 2-3 minutes on electronic targets are we cheating ourselves of the main experience that separates f from benchrest.
maybe we can program in the odd bad pit service randomly in the etargets to really stimulate the true fclass experience ;D

kiwial, I find your comments to be very narrow minded. I have never thought of the F-Class experiance in that way. Why would any two shooters have to have the same experiance? What is exactly is the "True" F-Class experiance? Does that "True" experiance have to be the same for you as it is for me?

I also tire greatly of the comments about shooting fast, as being an almost negative way of shooting. Thank God we can shot this or any shooting sport in what ever technique we find that works for us, and not have to shot in such a way that any shooter is having to use some preconcieved shooting discipline that conforms to his competitiors way of shooting.

Roland

 

[6BRinNZ]

i dont think too many perfect scores will be a problem when each individual shot needs to be evaluated.
the cream will always rise to the top after a day or two of competition. what interests me is, when it is considered normal to rattle off the 10-20 shots in 2-3 minutes on electronic targets are we cheating ourselves of the main experience that separates f from benchrest.
maybe we can program in the odd bad pit service randomly in the etargets to really stimulate the true fclass experience ;D

kiwial, I find your comments to be very narrow minded. I have never thought of the F-Class experiance in that way. Why would any two shooters have to have the same experiance? What is exactly is the "True" F-Class experiance? Does that "True" experiance have to be the same for you as it is for me?

I also tire greatly of the comments about shooting fast, as being an almost negative way of shooting. Thank God we can shot this or any shooting sport in what ever technique we find that works for us, and not have to shot in such a way that any shooter is having to use some preconcieved shooting discipline that conforms to his competitiors way of shooting.

Roland

Roland - just for the record we shoot string style here as well.

The Oz's have already posted on this thread that electronic targets are changing string shooting to the point that they are getting people complaining and want to slow it down...i.e. the electronic targets are speeding things up even further. I think the comment was - the speedsters are beating the wind readers.

Electronic targets will change some basic aspects of the sport...for instance removing the ability to see others spotting disks.

IMO - nothing narrow minded about the post - shooters are going to have to think about what it is that is important to them, what it is they like about the discipline and comment accordingly.

 

[Hombre0321]

6BRnNZ, I certainly value all opinions, that is way I read these forums in the first place. You and I sir will just have to disagree on this subject. I believe those comments are completely "Narrow Minded" and stand behind that statement.

I also know nothing about your electronic targets or the way they work or how they may be changing the sport, so I cannot speak to that. I do believe that electronic targets are coming even here to the US in time. I also believe that will be a slow process and it will be years before this happens here at least.

Folks are going to shoot what ever way works best, if that turns out to be shooting Fast then so be it, but never harbor under the illusion that wind reading skills are going to be diminished by electronic targets. As an example I shoot fast, very fast usually a relay of 20 shots for record and unlimited sighters ( I usually shoot a minimum of 6 and sometimes as many as 10 sighters) takes me right at 5 to 6 minutes or so of the allotted 33 minutes allowed. I do not chase the spotter even though I do use it as one form of information to be included into my wind reading, I make a wind call on every shot and usually a correction as well.

I am a firm believer that the shooter does not have to "Study" the wind at length, he or she does need to call the wind for the next shot. There is plenty of time to do that in the time the target is in the pits. I almost always break my next shot as soon as my target is returned, as soon as it stops my shot is on the way. That is unless there is a wind change in process at that time.

Your last comment is interesting, and I quote:

"IMO - nothing narrow minded about the post - shooters are going to have to think about what it is that is important to them, what it is they like about the discipline and comment accordingly."

Surely you mean by that all shooters don't you? I do not believe that you only mean shooters that hold the same point of view. Or do you? My comments should fall right slab in the middle of that comment. I am after all commenting on what "I" feel is important and commenting accordingly...

Roland

 

[TonyR]

In one of my business trips to Scotland back in 98 I had the opportunity to shoot in Blair Atholl, that was when I was introduced to multiple shooters on the mound, I have to admit, after the first day of getting used to it, I actually enjoyed it, the format suits my style of shooting - click and shoot.

The scenery does hurt either. Blair Atholl has to be one of the most beautiful places to shot there is.

 

[Steve Blair]

As an example I shoot fast, very fast usually a relay of 20 shots for record and unlimited sighters ( I usually shoot a minimum of 6 and sometimes as many as 10 sighters) takes me right at 5 to 6 minutes or so of the allotted 33 minutes allowed. I do not chase the spotter even though I do use it as one form of information to be included into my wind reading, I make a wind call on every shot and usually a correction as well.

I am a firm believer that the shooter does not have to "Study" the wind at length, he or she does need to call the wind for the next shot. There is plenty of time to do that in the time the target is in the pits. I almost always break my next shot as soon as my target is returned, as soon as it stops my shot is on the way. That is unless there is a wind change in process at that time.

[br]
Do you actually win anything shooting like that? How did you place last year at the Nats? What range allows 33 minutes for 20 shot strings and unlimited sighters?

 

[6BRinNZ]

Surely you mean by that all shooters don't you? I do not believe that you only mean shooters that hold the same point of view. Or do you? My comments should fall right slab in the middle of that comment. I am after all commenting on what "I" feel is important and commenting accordingly...

Roland

Yep - all shooters.
Yes - lets disagree on whether the opinion is narrow minded or not - or if an opinion on the subject should be criticised in such a way.

It has been an interesting thread.

 

[Hombre0321]

As an example I shoot fast, very fast usually a relay of 20 shots for record and unlimited sighters ( I usually shoot a minimum of 6 and sometimes as many as 10 sighters) takes me right at 5 to 6 minutes or so of the allotted 33 minutes allowed. I do not chase the spotter even though I do use it as one form of information to be included into my wind reading, I make a wind call on every shot and usually a correction as well.

I am a firm believer that the shooter does not have to "Study" the wind at length, he or she does need to call the wind for the next shot. There is plenty of time to do that in the time the target is in the pits. I almost always break my next shot as soon as my target is returned, as soon as it stops my shot is on the way. That is unless there is a wind change in process at that time.

[br]
Do you actually win anything shooting like that? How did you place last year at the Nats? What range allows 33 minutes for 20 shot strings and unlimited sighters?

Yes I am winning shooting like that as a matter of fact in my first 1,000 yd match were there were 58 shooters I finished 2nd to Danny Biggs. I did that in 4 matches that year finishing 2nd to Mr. Biggs. I think that puts me in pretty good company. I have not attended the Nationals as of yet , any more Bodifides you need there?

As to what range how's about Oak Ridge Tennessee? or maybe Tullahoma Tennessee and also Blakely Georga all shot the same time limits of 30 minutes to shoot your string after a 3 minute prepare time. Is it different else where?

Roland