Chasing The Spotter

[Hombre0321]

Roland

I competed in quite a few matches....with no sighters! Leg Matches and President Hundred Matches.....and many LR events! And yes...it wouldn't ever get past the rules committee this day and age because the present generation thinks nothing but score....rather than learning the wind. Common practice is to just 'chase the spotter' and I don't know of a better way in the world to get your azz handed to you than using that method!!

Folks, I am starting this conversation in a new thread so as not to run away with another thread that this subject came up on.

Rick Mulhern,
Sense I started this with your quote on that thread I will start right here. you know Rick I like your idea of NO sighter shots in F-Class. Notice I didn't say this is the way to go but i like the mental exercise of that idea. I think if this happened ( and realize it never will) that it would make all F-Class shooters better at the game. They would have to know there rifles better, be better at reading the wind, certainly Intially, and would make for some interesting scores.

Your comment however about " Chasing the Spotter" is what got me to start this new thread.

The way folks get started in F-Class is NOT just guys coming over from HighPower Shooting, although many would like to think that. Most Take up F-Class for reasons of there own. The rest or bipod along with the rear bag are I personally feel more of a reason then most would ever admit to. A lot of shooters start the competition shooting in F-Class. These new shooters bring no wind reading skills with them for the most part, and face it what these matches are "Really" about are wind reading skills in the end.

For these new shooters who havn't had the trigger time or directions to learn how to read the wind, what choice do they have but to chase the spotter?

I also disagree with you to some extinct about getting your butt handed to you if that is what you do. That certainly would be true if there was a shooter on the line who actually knew "How" to read the wind, but in many many case's you are on a level playing field there. I say that because I am a study of what is going on at a match. Many times I have seen shooters all up and down the line somewhere close to centered up 9's and 10's less say. I am on the scope any time I am not shooting so I notice these things. Suddenly with some of these guys shooting 9's and 10's I will see a change, so I then really pay close attention to what the "Next" shot score is. So many times it will be a 8 or maybe wide 7 even, as most of the shooters missed that change. There not doing this because they want to pull that wide 7, they simple did not notice the change or even worse saw it and didn't know what to do with it.

Another words Rick they can get by shooting or chasing the spotter. Not much other alternative for a lot of shooters until they aquire the skills in wind reading. That takes time as well and lots and lots of bullets down range Shooting In The Wind. If there is a failing it is that Not Shooting In The Wind.

Roland

 

[broncman]

I will chime in as the "new" shooter. I came straight to FT/R in the mid 2000's because of equipment and money on hand. I attended North State Shooting Clubs long range seminars. I shot midrange with a 223 AR.

It was not chambered for anything bigger than 77.

When I got back into it last fall, I had forgot what little I learned about assigning a value to wind. With no coach or local help, it simply boils down to range time.

SO... Here is how I used my spottters or at least tried. I held center, watched the flags and shot. Then saw where it hit. Held center again, watched the flags change and shot again. Then saw what that change translated to on target.

During score, it changed ALOT and more severly..as a newcomer, I had no base to assign the new value, just a guess. It showed on my target and score.

I am tempted to shoot a whole match center aim , no adjustments so I can see wimd value on target to what I see in the flags.

I am very temptes to shoot a whole match center aim,

 

[Keith Glasscock]

This discussion could also be broken down by ranges. I shoot some where nobody, and I mean nobody shoots well by trying to call the exact wind. By contrast, the world-class folks that I have shot with (including members of both the national F-open and F-TR teams) use a "modified" chase-the-spotter tactic. That is, they have learned to play match-the-condition and time-the-changes to great effect. That doesn't mean that they don't shoot 9's (or 8's for that matter) after a change, but it sounds like a belt-fed bolt action when the wind is steady.

All in all, most of them do chase the spotter during a run (3-7 rounds) I've even learned how to capitalize on the wind flow that way. The difference between them and me? They know when to stop. I still try to sneak one last round in and usually get hammered.

I agree with the original statement that pure chase-the-spotter ends badly in changing conditions, but it can also give excellent scores under light conditions.

I think everyone needs to have a certain number of tools in the toolbox. If you have the right one for the conditions, you will do well.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Over here you only ever get two sighters - I shoot a 6BR in F-open - without sighters I may as well not bother....I am already up against it...

If the sentiment "no sighters" would help improve wind skills - there is nothing wrong not taking sighters in club days now...who cares what scores you get at club days, its the regionals and Nationals that count...take your sighters then.

I found that very few good wind readers are actually able to fully articulate how they are interpreting the wind and ultimately you have to find your own way (this is backed up by statements in "the wind book for rifle shooters").

Wind reading is the game no matter how you do it...within that there are strategies that need to be used where appropriate.

 

[Rtheurer]

Wind reading is the game no matter how you do it...within that there are strategies that need to be used where appropriate.

Couldnt say it better myself. Having more than one strategy is what seperates the winner and the other shooters. If your method is to read the flags only... Your missing alot. Mirage, Flags, Others spotter location, felt wind on the body, Sound of wind inthe tree's, the grass or weeds in your field of view, cyclic timing of the changes... are just some of the things that can be used. I PAY ATTENTION to everything around me.. Sitiational Awarness.

Strategies that match your current range and condition.

RussT

 

[jbpmidas]

I'm definitley no expert! But, I have introduced a few new competitors to the sport. I always tell them, "Your first match is a learning experience!" They need to learn all they can. I can't fully explain how I "read wind." I give them a few indicators I look at. But, to me, the important thing is to find something that tells the truth, and that's different at every range. I tell them to break a good shot after looking at one of the indicators, if the shot isn't where it's supposed to be, look at something else. One of the indicators will tell the truth!

 

[Immike]

Our range at St.Louis is a switchy wind range. The tall flags on the poles don't give good information and the wind seems to be a new angle on every relay or every few shots. Following the spotter is not going to win the match on most days if you don't watch EVERY thing else.

 

[memilanuk]

While I'm one of those people with a 'belt-fed bolt gun' in string fire (when appropriate), I'm also definitely a proponent of shooting Fullbore with 2-3 to a mound for a couple reasons.

One, it's more 'friendly' in a lot of ways. If someone brings a buddy out we can generally pair them up so they aren't left on their own feeling lost. If a new shooter appears we can pair them up with someone more experienced to show them the ropes. Outright coaching is still discouraged, but informal chatter is allowed/encouraged (as long as it doesn't bother others) and often times a slight nudge in the right direction in the form a comment is enough help to get a bewildered new shooter pointing in the right direction again.

Two, it bridges the gap between 'no sighters' and 'sighters'. Sure, you get sighters, but they are strictly limited and if you have everything together and can convert your sighters and finish your string early... seems to be something most people are eager to do.

Three... it absolutely makes you a better wind reader, in my opinion. You can't 'run the conditions', nor can you really wait it out. You have to make a discrete wind call every shot, not some form of chasing the spotter. You *can* piggy-back off of the other shooter's shot impacts, but usually you don't really know where they held, etc. and especially if you get squadded F/TR with F/O that gets ugly quick. If you know and trust the ability of the shooter you're paired with, it can work. Otherwise, you can be lead astray rather quickly going that route.

For string fire... there are absolutely times when putting down the pen and abandoning the plot sheet and just making the brass fly is indeed the best option. The first trick is knowing when to *stop*, before it's too late : The second trick is figuring out WTF to do when conditions flip and ain't coming back...

...and then there are ranges/days when it just seems like nothing rational is making sense, so you just shoot fast to get the pain over with sooner

 

[M14AMU]

Roland

Your quote:

" I also disagree with you to some extinct about getting your butt handed to you if that is what you do. That certainly would be true if there was a shooter on the line who actually knew "How" to read the wind"

You need to understand about my comment of "getting your butt handed to you"! I DID NOT like MY BUTT being handed to ME! I couldn't have cared less...about anyone else on the line...getting THEIRS handed to THEM because when I was shooting comp I paid very close attention to learning how to lay in a vacuum....devoid of all other activity around me other than the wind flags, mirage, and target number board. Military Service Rifle shooters have basically a 'leg up' on most shooters because they have had the benefit of the world's best marksmanship instructors and a lot of highly intensified training and early on these shooters are taught that chasing the spotter IS NOT the way to go toward shooting consistently good, and high winning scores. As you well know, there are times when mirage is as useless as tits on a boar hog for a reference; then it becomes flag time! I've seen flags on various ranges indicate totally opposite readings at the same time, from the same yardage line! Fort Carson, Colorado, Twenty-Nine Palms, California, Fort Wolters, Texas, and Camp Perry, Ohio come to mind! One might ask...."what does this have to do with no sighters"? It's really simple...and you have already touched on the answer in that under a 'no sighter' situation the rifle demands of the shooter to intimately know his zero, how much the bullet will be deflected by the wind at X distance, what elevation zero is needed for X number of degrees F, what is the average speed of the wind during normal cyclic times, how does the flag indication relate to the observable mirage if available! All this to get....what?? A first round bullet impact into the X or 10 ring which will go a very long way toward instilling the shooter with total confidence in his/her ability!!

 

[yukonal]

....and then there are ranges/days when it just seems like nothing rational is making sense, so you just shoot fast to get the pain over with sooner

Pretty much the way I roll, every time out.

 

[Hombre0321]

Rick, I understand what you are talking about completely, to few folks really understand being in the zone and the level of concentration it not only takes to get there, but to stay there. As you know there was a long period in my life when there only was the "one shot". There was no choice but to make it work, and sighters were completely out of the question. I am not advocating let me repeat that "I Am Not Advocating" that we do away with sighter shots. I am saying that wouldn't it be interesting if we did.

To make that work you have to know your rifle and your load for any and all possible conditions. This is not an easy thing to do, we spent hundreds of hours on the fireing line learning how to be successful, sent thousands of rounds down range. Built a log book to include as much information was we could ( it never was enough though).

I am very fortunate to have today for my F-Class shooting a Mentor. Bob Pastor ( the Viper) has been kind enough to share as much information as I am able to absorb. He has been my guide into this type of shooting. I have had Bob tell me about being totally mentally and physically exhausted after a relay. I remember the level of concentration it takes to be able to use the information that is right there in front of us, F-Class has that same needs.

The new shooter in F-Class ( that would include myself) is going to have to find a way to learn how to read and Understand the wind. I have an advantage there because of my past experiences. Most shooters don't have that to work with. It is a daunting task to say the least.

It takes a lot of trigger time and I mean a lot. One to learn something about the wind, what it does and just as important, what it doesn't do.Also to perfect the level of concentration needed to be able to use what you are learning in a constructive way. To be able to turn off the rest of the world for those minutes you are on the line and in the rifle.

You also are going to have to teach yourself what wind indicaters you can use and trust. Wind flags certainly have there place, but they are poor indicaters of many things. As an example how many times have you seen shooters hold and shoot in a lull when the flags are laying down? A lull or drop in the wind flags on a day when they are somewhat active is an indicator alright, but is not the time to shoot, it is I believe the time to wait. if they drop that is an indication of a change in progress, the flags are slow to show the actual change. By the time you break that shot the change has probably already happened and you are out in left field with that shot. This is a good time to use not only the flags but mirage in combination with the flags, mirage is an almost instant indicator of a change. It will make that move while the flag is still hanging there.

You cannot however just use mirage either, mirage will lie to you sometimes. You will see one thing but another is really going on. Mirage also is not a good indicator of direction. Oh it will tell you weather it is right to left or left to right but that covers 180 degrees of the compass. It will not tell you if it is a quarter value, half value, or full value. Any of those can be the difference between a solid 10 and a 6 under some conditions.

It is a tough deal no doubt about it, wind reading is just as important than the rifle the load or any thing else and on many, many days it is the most important element there is.

Roland

 

[Steve Blair]

You cannot however just use mirage either, mirage will lie to you sometimes. You will see one thing but another is really going on. Mirage also is not a good indicator of direction. Oh it will tell you weather it is right to left or left to right but that covers 180 degrees of the compass. It will not tell you if it is a quarter value, half value, or full value. Any of those can be the difference between a solid 10 and a 6 under some conditions.

[br]
If the range terrain is accommodating, you can see direction with mirage. If the range is such that you can see an expanse of flat area, focus your spotting scope on that area and mirage can often be seen as directional across the area. This is no substitute for using "all of the above" but can help in certain situations.

 

[Immike]

Deep focus is what makes a shooter. Application of experience without emotions.

 

[dblinden]

Good discussion. T. Viper is the only reply that touched on what I was thinking. I assume that in order to shoot well, wind doping is a skill set that needs to be maximized. In order to take advantage of any cues about wind conditions, one must have the time and patience to study and wait for the appropriate time to shoot. To have adequate time, you must be able to hold position for 25 minutes in difficult conditions. (This would obviously apply to sling shooters) You must be able to execute as well at 24' 45" as you can at 30" into a string. This can be trained. Try watching a TV sitcom while in position and not moving until the program ends. To have adequate patience, one must have the determination of personality to do whatever it takes to be successful.

I shot in a very windy, changing conditions match today in GA. I heard people bragging about how fast they shoot, "I'll only need 6-8 minutes to shoot all my sighters and 20 shots". None of them did well at all. Those "chasing the spotter" aka correcting after every shot did just as poorly. I kept cringing when I watched the sight knobs rotating every which way. People lamented all day about the 7's and 8's on either side of the target. There was no need. A Palma team coach shooting next to me commented after a 200 string that he didn't touch his sights. I never made more than a 2-click adjustment the whole day.

Dennis L

 

[Steve Blair]

I never made more than a 2-click adjustment the whole day.

Dennis L

[br]
I shoot through entire tournaments without touching my windage knob, never moving it from 1000 yard zero. There's no need.

 

[Hombre0321]

Good discussion. T. Viper is the only reply that touched on what I was thinking. I assume that in order to shoot well, wind doping is a skill set that needs to be maximized. In order to take advantage of any cues about wind conditions, one must have the time and patience to study and wait for the appropriate time to shoot. To have adequate time, you must be able to hold position for 25 minutes in difficult conditions. (This would obviously apply to sling shooters) You must be able to execute as well at 24' 45" as you can at 30" into a string. This can be trained. Try watching a TV sitcom while in position and not moving until the program ends. To have adequate patience, one must have the determination of personality to do whatever it takes to be successful.

I shot in a very windy, changing conditions match today in GA. I heard people bragging about how fast they shoot, "I'll only need 6-8 minutes to shoot all my sighters and 20 shots". None of them did well at all. Those "chasing the spotter" aka correcting after every shot did just as poorly. I kept cringing when I watched the sight knobs rotating every which way. People lamented all day about the 7's and 8's on either side of the target. There was no need. A Palma team coach shooting next to me commented after a 200 string that he didn't touch his sights. I never made more than a 2-click adjustment the whole day.

Dennis L

Dennis I think you got this partially right. You left out of your thinking Bob Pastors most important comment-- "keep The Target In The Pits". I shoot very fast and I have shot Cleans in pretty tricky conditions at a 1,000 yds, and I have done this even in Georgia.

Any shooter can only shoot as fast as his pit service will allow him to. There is a clue Pit Service. You have from the time you break your last shot until you break your next shot the time the target is in the pits to read the wind make a call and be waiting for the target to return, you then "Can " break that shot as soon as the target stops moving. Nothing wrong at all with shooting fast. It is and certainly can be a big advantage, but knowing not only when to shoot but when to wait, or how much correction to make is the key.

Also I don't see folks cranking on there scope knobs after they have gone for score much. Maybe beginners and new guys will do this, and I suppose some experienced shooters may do this, I just don't see it. Just to easy to get lost on your corrections using the scope, holding off I think is a much better approach. If they are using valuable time to crank on there scope knobs that would be time much better spent reading the wind.

Roland

 

[M14AMU]

Good discussion. T. Viper is the only reply that touched on what I was thinking. I assume that in order to shoot well, wind doping is a skill set that needs to be maximized. In order to take advantage of any cues about wind conditions, one must have the time and patience to study and wait for the appropriate time to shoot. To have adequate time, you must be able to hold position for 25 minutes in difficult conditions. (This would obviously apply to sling shooters) You must be able to execute as well at 24' 45" as you can at 30" into a string. This can be trained. Try watching a TV sitcom while in position and not moving until the program ends. To have adequate patience, one must have the determination of personality to do whatever it takes to be successful.

I shot in a very windy, changing conditions match today in GA. I heard people bragging about how fast they shoot, "I'll only need 6-8 minutes to shoot all my sighters and 20 shots". None of them did well at all. Those "chasing the spotter" aka correcting after every shot did just as poorly. I kept cringing when I watched the sight knobs rotating every which way. People lamented all day about the 7's and 8's on either side of the target. There was no need. A Palma team coach shooting next to me commented after a 200 string that he didn't touch his sights. I never made more than a 2-click adjustment the whole day.

Dennis L

" A Palma team coach shooting next to me commented after a 200 string that he didn't touch his sights."

There was a guy that's been at it a while!! ;D :-*

 

[memilanuk]

Also I don't see folks cranking on there scope knobs after they have gone for score much. Maybe beginners and new guys will do this, and I suppose some experienced shooters may do this, I just don't see it. Just to easy to get lost on your corrections using the scope, holding off I think is a much better approach. If they are using valuable time to crank on there scope knobs that would be time much better spent reading the wind.

And that... is very range-dependent. I've seen a few places that not touching your windage knob is not an option - even for F/Open chambered up with 7mm Short Monster. That is, unless you don't mind holding on your neighbor's target - as in both of them.

Shooting Palma on those ranges is best done with liquid-cooled windage knobs and 1/2 moa clicks.

Shooting F/TR with the smaller center on those ranges... is about enough to make you want to go fall on your cleaning rod at the end of the day.

Some days when its switching hard and fast you can get away with waiting for your condition to come back around, and only shooting in 'known' conditions. Other times... there is so much change in speed, velocity, etc. that combined with sucky target service by the time you 'see' what you want, its gone - or your time is running out. I've won - and lost - matches both ways. It happens.

This whole thread is starting to sound like a familiar tune again - the chest-thumping of (former) Service Rifle shooters denigrating anybody who doesn't go down shooting irons until they had to move to optics and/or a rest - so I think I'm about done.

 

[Scott Harris]

Just read Nancy Tompkins new book on long range shooting and must say I'm impressed. She speaks in plain English and has a LOT to say about reading the wind....like 60 pages of great information. I've read a few different books on the subject and Nancy's version is the best I've seen yet. My favorite two tips are:

Have a no-wind zero
Always know how many clicks off this zero you are.....every shot.

The reason I like this advice is if you follow it, you can teach yourself how to read the wind. If you don't follow it, you probably will not improve very quickly.

IMHO chasing the spotter can be extremely effective in certain conditions.....and ineffective in others. Get Nancy's book if you want her take on it.

 

[6BRinNZ]

so - are spotters the root of all wind reading evil?

Unfortunately for the new shooter most of what is in this thread is true to some degree - it just won't work everytime everywhere.....I think the trick is to take none of it as absolutes but see what can be gleaned from the posts.

Wind reading/atmospherics in itself is an art - difficult to communicate as to how to produce the masterful brush strokes but the basics are easily shown....

The army may have the process down pat as to training truly good shooters - but on the main new competitive shooters have to sort out what works for themselves...understandable as there can't be amazing wind readers and communicators in every club....

IMO there are very few forums that talk about wind reading techniques and strategies....but more load data than a browser can cope with...yet we probably all loose more points to wind than loads...to this point Hombre I welcome your thread.

Nancys book is awesome, so is "the wind book for rifle shooters" and Germans "wind basics" blog is well worth reading, Jim Owens info is handy if a little basic compared to the two books.....between that lot there is a life time of wind thinking...

Good luck all.