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Chasing the lands is stupid... What do you think?

I don’t want to speak for another man but that’s what I heard him say so as long as it shoots small - who cares where the lands are
stay .001 back from the inside of the seating window until it doesn’t shoot small @Erik Cortina
Correct me if I’m wrong
That's correct. I chase the node, not the lands.
 
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Looking at the video; seems to me one is still finding the optimum distance from the bullet to the lands, just using different semantics to describe the process.
No, I'm finding the optimum seating depth node for my load. After that, I chase the node, never the lands. I have no idea where the lands are ever, only reason for finding "jam" is so that I don't stick a bullet in the barrel.
If I'm limited by mag length, then I don't even care where jam is. I'll treat mag max length as "jam" and work back form there. I'll find a good node just as well.

It seems I may need to do a part 2. lol
 
Eric has a method that obviously works for him, and I believe that he is " chasing the group". I have been "chasing the lands" and have experienced a need to load the bullet longer to get back to a smaller group. So I am actually "chasing the group".

Eric has a method to find a "Starting Point" that works for him. I use a different method to find a "Starting Point", checking the sizing of the case and checking the location of the "touch point" with the Wheeler Method. After that I find the best group size by adjusting the seating depth, so after settling on a seating depth, I am generally increasing the bullet extension to return to a smaller group. Also at this point, you are letting the target tell you the proper seat depth, it's not a measurement game.

But we all have to start from some point of "measurement", either "jam" or "touch".

I did like his suggestion of having a few loads with a + bullet extension to check your group.
 
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Correct. I only find "jam" so that I stay away from it. If I am limited by mag length, then I don't care where jam is ever. All I worry about is where the rifle shoots.

For example: "Erik, where do you seat your bullets in relation to the lands?"
Me: "I don't know, however, I know my rifle shoots well at 2.150, 2.153, and 2.156, so I seat at 2.155"
Erik
No, I'm finding the optimum seating depth node for my load. After that, I chase the node, never the lands. I have no idea where the lands are ever, only reason for finding "jam" is so that I don't stick a bullet in the barrel.
If I'm limited by mag length, then I don't even care where jam is. I'll treat mag max length as "jam" and work back form there. I'll find a good node just as well.

It seems I may need to do a part 2. lol
Erik,
Maybe you can update your “Load development at 100 yards” from back in 2014?
 
You can tell shooters, but you can’t tell them much. Bullet seating is like barrel cleaning, and everyone has what they think is the best method. And that my friends, is what makes this sport and this forum so great.
 
I know EC is a smart guy by all accounts. But, I turned off the video after about 45 seconds. First "stupid" thing is the term jam. I believe in finding touch with a new unfired barrel. Keep that dummy round, you have a reference point. Second thing is many folks looking and happy with groups in the .5 area , Thats not what I am looking for. Maybe we all should specify our goal on size when a start threads on accuracy discussions. Now I will watch the rest of the video and hopefully learn something. The jam term just drives me crazy, in my mind it's wothless.
 
You missed the point. What angle is the throat you are measuring after 1,200 rounds? What about after 1,800? You aren’t measuring the same surface, so how is your measurement “accurate”?
It doesn't matter what angle the throat has eroded to, the contact point to the lands is just that (and progressively changing).
And by periodically checking where the contact point is reveals the amount of change in relationship with the lands, and the progressive amount of throat erosion.

While your able to accomplish the same thing in keeping up with the accuracy node, it's a shoddy method for advancement reference, erosion recording, or comparison. Hardly what I consider a good reloading method to teach and/or pass on, for it's basically nothing more then a lazy method of not referencing actual measurable facts, hence: a shoddy method - IMO.
 
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If a bullet touching the lands centers the cartridge better, causes a more uniform pressure curve and eliminates the vibrations caused by a bullet slamming into the lands, all three of which lead to less vibrations, why would a more accurate load with a seating that is less than touching be anything other than an indication of a wrong primer or powder charge? What's the reason an off the lands load could be best?

I thought that seating depth is trying to get the bullet to exit at the time the muzzle is the quietest => the reason for an off the lands being more accurate is because it's arriving at the muzzle at a quieter time?
 
I know a great shooter who throat-ed his 4" gun because the bullet was in the case past the shoulder. He put the bullet out were it was to the lands and guess what it was now a 7" gun.
So he put the bullet back in the case were it was and guess what it started shooting 4" Again! Find the tune.

Joe Salt
 
I'm assuming everyone that is advocating for touching/ into the lands is shooting bench rest. I'm not sure how sticking a bullet in the lands/ grooves would work out
in any other discipline. I had to loan out my cleaning rod four times at my last match due to bullets stuck in the barrel (not fired, chambered, time expired)
 
^^^^YUP^^^^ Add some heavy carbon in the throat in the middle of match 3 on a 3x20+sighters F-class shoot and if you seat a bit into the lands you may be in for a little excitement when you see conditions change after closing the bolt on a round and you decide to extract and wait it out. Chasing down a cleaning rod, blowing out kernels from the lug recess will give you plenty of time for your condition to return;). Too much fun for me. I like to seat well off of the potential train wreck zone. I understand seating in the lands in BR when you are running them and not likely to hold and extract for conditions.
 
I'm assuming everyone that is advocating for touching/ into the lands is shooting bench rest. I'm not sure how sticking a bullet in the lands/ grooves would work out
in any other discipline. I had to loan out my cleaning rod four times at my last match due to bullets stuck in the barrel (not fired, chambered, time expired)
yeeup.. happened to me on several occasions at Perry when i was shooting the .223 there.. i never chased the lands then either.. .001 tension and let the bullets seat themselves.. but hey.. that fisherman or jet ski renter would cause me to have to clean out the gun!
 
yeeup.. happened to me on several occasions at Perry when i was shooting the .223 there.. i never chased the lands then either.. .001 tension and let the bullets seat themselves.. but hey.. that fisherman or jet ski renter would cause me to have to clean out the gun!
I kinda felt bad for the two guys it happened to. Both were shooting their first match, and used a modified case gauge they assumed fit the chamber to get measurements. Turns out they were shoving the bullet into the lands enough to get stuck. I'm sure it made for a long trip back to Jacksonville, NC
 
Erik - If you're in a situation where you have to switch to a new lot of bullets mid barrel life, do you start this process from scratch, or try to find based off your old node?
 
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Applecart tipping over here, but just like you can get behind your buddy’s gun and shoot it surprisingly well the first time, if your two guns will accept each other’s brass and you are both competent loaders, something absolutely impossible tends to happen, the rifles are going to shoot the other’s ammo with results as you’d expect after meticulous load development.
 
No, I'm finding the optimum seating depth node for my load. After that, I chase the node, never the lands. I have no idea where the lands are ever, only reason for finding "jam" is so that I don't stick a bullet in the barrel.
If I'm limited by mag length, then I don't even care where jam is. I'll treat mag max length as "jam" and work back form there. I'll find a good node just as well.

It seems I may need to do a part 2. lol


just tell us your current starting load recipe for your F open rifle and how you have had to adjust the load after 700 rounds? :)
(this is a joke, unless you really want to)

thanks for the videos and explanation
 
Erik, I just got around to actually watching the video. I posted previously, before watching it...but we essentially said the same thing.
The video was good and it was a nice attempt to explain something that, to so, it can't be explained. Others get what you're saying and agree with you.

It's just a number until you shoot it. You then adjust it accordingly. Really, nothing more or less than that. The Wheeler method may work great at establishing a point of reference for discussion purposes, but that and 50 cents still won't get you a cup of coffee. It's just a point of reference for describing the length of your loaded round, in relation to your lands. Doesn't mean it'll shoot there and doesn't mean it won't..So what does it mean, of any value to me or the next guy? It's a way of conveying a good starting point for you and your load,bbl, etc. Nothing more and nothing less.

I understand what you're saying and I agree with you.

The only difference is that I stated that I often start at what I call "full jam" because I can only go one direction from there. In BR, I'm not even particularly worried about the bullet sticking in the lands, as we can almost always "dump" that round during a cease fire but before the line is called safe.(cold)

Some cartridges, such as a 30br with h4198, tend to like a lot of neck tension and a lot of jam. I feel it is because of the way the starting pressure builds but that's neither her nor there..because it doesn't matter why. What matters is that it works..often...on the target.

Still, just move the tuner a mark or two and this discussion is moot...and maybe even less debatable....maybe!:D
 
Used correctly a hornady OAL gauge will give a good starting point. The exact point of touching the lands is a "range" depending on the force applied to the bullet. I personally point the barrel down and let gravity determine the point the bullet stops in the lands.

The only thing that I disagree in the video is forcing the bullet into the lands using the bolt, that is a good way to gall the lugs.
 

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