Chamber flush - oil or water soluble?

[LVLAaron]

Building a chamber flush system... Curious what opinions are on fluids to use.

I've only used Ridgid dark oils and vipers venom. Both are great (Ridgid leaves you with softer hands, though)

I see many threads where guys are cutting Ridgid with ATF but I'm adverse to using ATF... Questionable health/safety, eats paint, etc.

I'm also adverse to water based stuff... I've heard that some folks are using SYN4300 and liking it.. but I'm not sure about it's actual lubrication properties as it is a coolant...

I'm leaning vipers venom... it's thin enough I think it would evacuate chips and pump without problems.

What say you, internet?

 

[Papa Charlie]

Here is a really great interview with Bruce Thom of BAT sharing his chambering tools and process. From the video he is using an oil.

 

[LVLAaron]

Saw that. Oil is preferred (to me, a dumb dumb) but I'm curious what specific oil / product to use.

 

[Ksracer]

I've got 4.5g of Rustlick UltraCutPro and another gallon of something else they recommended that I'd sell cheap if you want to try a water soluble.
As far as ATF, I find it hard to believe it's any more hazardous than any other oil. I've certainly never seen it eat paint, but I've been wrong before.
As far as getting enough flow to move chips, a good drill and pre-bore eliminates most of the chips right off the bat.
From there, use a pump that can provide a little pressure and you should be fine.
If you really want to move some oil, JGS offers reamers with undersize spindles and step up pilots with deep oil grooves cut in them to aid flow.

Just my .02cents, which is worth even less after being corrected for inflation....

 

[shortgrass]

I am pumping a blend of dark threading oil and Tap Magic Pro Tap W/EP Extra using a small, aluminum bodied hydraulic pump (2.5 gpm if I remember correctly) connected to a 1/4hp electric motor via a LoveJoy couplers and I have absolutely no problem moving enough oil. I think I paid $65-$75 for it over ebay. If you think you need something thinner, investigate 'screw machine oil'. It's a cutting and lubricating oil in the 20W range. There are lots of good options available, both water based and oil. Water gives up heat faster than oil will... Not the same concern as it is in production machining where you're pushing an insert @ 0.015per rev and 0.04-0.06 deep in a CNC. Chambering does generate some heat, but not like that.

 

[DaveTooley]

I use oil. Tried all the name brands and settled on Monroe Fluid Technology. I have used probably 50 gallons of the Astro Swiss HD LV. A screw machine oil. They have stopped making the LV so I'll try the MV when I need more.
BTW I turn dry and use oil for every other OP

 

[LVLAaron]

I use oil. Tried all the name brands and settled on Monroe Fluid Technology. I have used probably 50 gallons of the Astro Swiss HD LV. A screw machine oil. They have stopped making the LV so I'll try the MV when I need more.
BTW I turn dry and use oil for every other OP

Thanks Dave. Is the Astro Swiss stuff a lower viscosity oil?

I've had a couple of people tell me Habcool has a gun drill oil that they can add some sulphur to.

 

[DaveTooley]

I don't remember the viscosity number but it easy to pump. As I've said I use the 1/8 HP low pressure pump that came with my Haas. If I do my part roughing out the chamber I withdraw the reamer one time when the shoulder makes contact to get HS number for the final cut.
The LV was recommended to me by their engineers. They have a lot to offer. You can order it through MSC or direct from Monroe. The LV has no sulphur. I think the requirement to need sulphur may go back to when you went to the hardware store and the only "cutting oil" was sulphurized. Now it may help in some cases but not having it doesn't hurt the end product in my shop. I have sent samples to several people to try and all said it was an improvement over what they were using. YMMV

Neat Cutting Oils | Monroe Fluid

Neat cutting oil products include a range of formulations that can stand up to demanding needs in machining titanium, nickel alloys, stainless and more!

www.monroefluid.com

 

[LVLAaron]

I don't remember the viscosity number but it easy to pump. As I've said I use the 1/8 HP low pressure pump that came with my Haas. If I do my part roughing out the chamber I withdraw the reamer one time when the shoulder makes contact to get HS number for the final cut.
The LV was recommended to me by their engineers. They have a lot to offer. You can order it through MSC or direct from Monroe. The LV has no sulphur. I think the requirement to need sulphur may go back to when you went to the hardware store and the only "cutting oil" was sulphurized. Now it may help in some cases but not having it doesn't hurt the end product in my shop. I have sent samples to several people to try and all said it was an improvement over what they were using. YMMV

Neat Cutting Oils | Monroe Fluid

Neat cutting oil products include a range of formulations that can stand up to demanding needs in machining titanium, nickel alloys, stainless and more!

www.monroefluid.com

Awesome. Thanks Dave!

 

[tobnpr]

Here is a really great interview with Bruce Thom of BAT sharing his chambering tools and process. From the video he is using an oil.

Interesting, hadn't seen that before.
I was scratching my head for a bit at the barrel being held rigidly in a 4-jaw- until he acknowledged that he'd be screwed with the rigid setup he uses if the bore isn't "straight" (coaxial to the OD) absent shimming in the 4-jaw. Respect for overhauling those manual machines back to perfection, and being able to use a rigid setup at all. Even a brandy-new machine won't have that capability because tailstocks are usually high intentionally and not perfect from the factory, reconditioning/scraping is one hell of a skill to have.

 

[GenePoole]

After being around CNC, I decided to give water-based coolant a try on my manual machines and I loved it. I built a simple fountain pump with a 5-gal bucket as a reservoir and a magnetic base for the line-loc attachments. So much cleaner and easier than oils. When I decided to build a system for barrel flush, I just added a better pump and a tee adapter and a Dueblin rotary fitting.

In my opinion, water-based coolant is the way to go. The lower viscosity allows insanely higher flow past the business end of the reamer. Just loosen it a bit and you've got Niagara Falls worth of coolant flushing the reamer clean. I used to have to clean the leading edge of the flutes with a penny after a few runs with oil. No more. With coolant, the reamer gets wiped down with a cloth and then back in its sleeve when I'm done.

 

[LVLAaron]

Interesting, hadn't seen that before.
I was scratching my head for a bit at the barrel being held rigidly in a 4-jaw- until he acknowledged that he'd be screwed with the rigid setup he uses if the bore isn't "straight" (coaxial to the OD) absent shimming in the 4-jaw. Respect for overhauling those manual machines back to perfection, and being able to use a rigid setup at all. Even a brandy-new machine won't have that capability because tailstocks are usually high intentionally and not perfect from the factory, reconditioning/scraping is one hell of a skill to have.

I thought that was interesting too. In the video for about 10 seconds you can see his other japanese lathes and they look super cool! I'd love to see more detail about those old machines.

 

[xr650rRider]

Interesting, hadn't seen that before.
I was scratching my head for a bit at the barrel being held rigidly in a 4-jaw- until he acknowledged that he'd be screwed with the rigid setup he uses if the bore isn't "straight" (coaxial to the OD) absent shimming in the 4-jaw. Respect for overhauling those manual machines back to perfection, and being able to use a rigid setup at all. Even a brandy-new machine won't have that capability because tailstocks are usually high intentionally and not perfect from the factory, reconditioning/scraping is one hell of a skill to have.

He kept that reamer holder with that machine. So I took it as he put that MT - JT shank in tailstock, then put cutting tool/reamer in spindle that was perfectly on center of machine to cut the reamer holder. As long as you put it in tailstock the same everytime (looked like it had set screw on top), wouldn't that insure the reamer would be on center?

 

[Papa Charlie]

He kept that reamer holder with that machine. So I took it as he put that MT - JT shank in tailstock, then put cutting tool/reamer in spindle that was perfectly on center of machine to cut the reamer holder. As long as you put it in tailstock the same everytime (looked like it had set screw on top), wouldn't that insure the reamer would be on center?

He did make mention of the alignment of the tail stock was an important part of his restoration. He also indicated that the reamer holder was placed in the tail stock and bored for the reamer using the head stock to ensure alignment.

Edit: Clarification on reamer holder.

 

[tobnpr]

He did make mention of the alignment of the tail stock was an important part of his restoration. He also indicated that the reamer holder was bored for the reamer using the head stock to ensure alignment.

I think Mr. Tooley uses a similar concept (?) with his Haas.

Tooling block rigidly attached to the cross slide, which was bored using tooling in the headstock.
Easy to do- I wanted to try it, but my lathe has a removable "cover" over most of the cross slide for access to adjustments for the screw/taper attachment so there's nothing rigid/absolutely repeatable to attach a tooling block. Feeding with the cross eliminates the tailstock and it's "issues" entirely.

It'd also be super easy to control reamer depth, even without a micrometer stop on the reamer.
DRO on the Z, and the micrometer stop for the carriage ensure repeatability.

 

[WSnyder]

I use oil. Tried all the name brands and settled on Monroe Fluid Technology. I have used probably 50 gallons of the Astro Swiss HD LV. A screw machine oil. They have stopped making the LV so I'll try the MV when I need more.
BTW I turn dry and use oil for every other OP

So I was curious about the difference between LV and MV and if LV was actually still available (Monroe still lists it on their website). They still make LV but it has to be ordered in large quantities. I also asked how the MV would fare as an LV replacement as far as low speed reaming operations go. Here’s the response I received:

ASTRO SWISS HD LV is still available but there is a 24 pail or one drum minimum.
In regards to the ASTRO SWISS HD MV as a replacement - The HD MV would probably succeed as a replacement for the HD LV but speeds and feeds might need to be reduced. THE HD LV has more extreme pressure lubricity additive in the form of chlorine.

	HD LV​	HD MV​
% Chlorine	15​	5​
% Sulfur, active	0​	0​
% Sulfur, inactive (non-stain)	1​	0.7​
%Fats	3​	3​
Viscosity @ 40oC, cSt	20​	24​

Let me know if you have any further questions.
--
Nelson Fischer

1-800-828-6351
nfischer@monroefluid.com

 

[WSnyder]

Has anyone used both MV and LV and noted any functional differences in chambering?

@DaveTooley I know you’ve said you’ll try MV when you needed more oil, had that happened yet?

I know some of you have recently tried MV, how’s it working so far?

 

[DaveTooley]

Has anyone used both MV and LV and noted any functional differences in chambering?

@DaveTooley I know you’ve said you’ll try MV when you needed more oil, had that happened yet?

I know some of you have recently tried MV, how’s it working so far?

I have not tried the MV yet.

 

[LVLAaron]

I've done 3 chambers with it so far. My only point of reference is manually applied dark cutting oil. It seems fine. No odor, which is a huge bonus. Good finish. My feed speed/pressure seemed normal. I could have pushed it harder but I was being delicate and learning how it likes to be run.

It's kind of an interesting oil... If (when) you get it on a polished action/barrel or something, it's kind of hard to get completely off. It doesn't absorb into shop towels like more typical oils I have used do. It's certainly slippery.

 

[DaveTooley]

So I was curious about the difference between LV and MV and if LV was actually still available (Monroe still lists it on their website). They still make LV but it has to be ordered in large quantities. Here’s the response I received:

ASTRO SWISS HD LV is still available but there is a 24 pail or one drum minimum.
In regards to the ASTRO SWISS HD MV as a replacement - The HD MV would probably succeed as a replacement for the HD LV but speeds and feeds might need to be reduced. THE HD LV has more extreme pressure lubricity additive in the form of chlorine.

	HD LV​	HD MV​
% Chlorine	15​	5​
% Sulfur, active	0​	0​
% Sulfur, inactive (non-stain)	1​	0.7​
%Fats	3​	3​
Viscosity @ 40oC, cSt	20​	24​

Let me know if you have any further questions.
--
Nelson Fischer

1-800-828-6351
nfischer@monroefluid.com

We sure don't push anything hard enough to get anywhere near "extreme pressure"
I thread at speed but that's with only taking .010" off each pass. I get hot chips but as long as I have enough oil flow I get no smoke. Between sound and smoke I know when an insert is getting dull. That and the pitch diameter will start to grow a bit. Once it increases a .001" I go to a new cutting edge.