Cci 450 issues

[243winxb]

My fired cases were at 1.455, the f/l sized cases that i had not loaded were at 1.453 there was a little variation. The two cases that would not fire measures 1.437 thats a big difference.

The 1.437" brass may produce case separations, when fired. Or at least damage the brass. Not always. Just something to look out for.

Remember, when the primer does not fire, the shoulder may get set back. As i said before.

 

[JB10]

The 1.437" brass may produce case separations, when fired. Or at least damage the brass. Not always. Just something to look out for.

Remember, when the primer does not fire, the shoulder may get set back. As i said before.

Im going to pay closer attention on ones that i did fire before and after next resize and see what they measure. Also going to change die settings and see how bolt closes with different adjustments to shoulder set back. I did not pay clost attention if these cases were once fired or not. I had already shot 50 and then prepped 50 more. Got a lot going on next few weekends so i will test again as soon as i can.

 

[JB10]

243winxb i have to ask, can you explain to me how the case shoulder will get set back by chambering the round multiple times? This is new to me and id like to know more. In my head i would think i would feel some resistance when closing the bolt like running the brass through a sizing die. Not being a smart ass, i wanna know more about this.

 

[47WillysGuy]

If not primer.......

Head clearance issue/cartridge headspacing.

After opening the necks to 6mm, all rounds fired, first firing? With CCI450?

The Savage Axis extractor allows a lot of forward movement of the cartridge on firing. If the shoulder has been set back a lot from to much sizing, may be an issue.
Size brass, so there is a slight crush fit when chambering a round.

My 223 Axis had a misfire using CCI 400 primer. Just 1.
What i learned from this misfire is... The firing pin strike can set the case shoulder back .006" The 2nd strike makes the head to datum measurement, ever shorter.
Tested a few times.

So, the more times you try to fire a bad primer, the futher away it gets from the firing pin. More cartridge slop in the chamber.

Interesting! I hope I'm understanding you correctly. So to test the shoulder set back you're talking about, I should take a full sized case with using a spent primer, chamber it, cock the rifle and release the firing pin and that should reduce the datum measurement?

I have a .308 in a Remington long action with a 23 pound spring on the firing pin. And the more times the firing pin is release that will cause the datum measurement to get even shorter. I gotta try it!

 

[47WillysGuy]

243winxb, you are correct. I lost 0.005" on the datum after 6 firing pin strikes. Larn something new everyday. Thanks for the idea/info.

 

[243winxb]

Remington long action

A Rem 700 extractor different then Savage Axis in 223. The Rem may get clamped onto the case rim, better? May stop forward movement from firing pin? I have not tested my Remingtons.

A bigger cartridge, in an axis, may not get the shoulder set back from a firing pin strike, when the primer does not fire?? Needs testing.

Another variable is annealing. My 223 brass, with misfire, was not annealed.
I sized so i had a crush fit on chambering. Measured head to datum. Struck used primer with pin. H to D got shorter by. 006" Repeated 3 times, new crush fit brass.

 

[JB10]

I came home tonight and adjusted sizing die and checking bolt closure. Got it to where a fired piece bumps shoulder back .001. Fired case is 1.455, a now sized is 1.454. I put it in the rifle and bolt closes smooth. I took a 223 case and sized it to the 6x45. It measures 1.460 and bolt has some resistance. This is with the die at new setting backed off the shellholder. The more i think on this issue i think some of the rounds i tried had not been fired in this rifle yet. So im going to size some more and try them out also thats tighter and compare with my already sized ones. Guess there is a good possibility that there was just too much slop and the round had some room to move just enough. I would have never thought trying to fire it more times would push the shoulder back even more but 47WillysGuy proved that it does happen.

 

[243winxb]

To confuse everyone a little more........

No Shoulder, & it still Fired - Shoulder not needed to fire a primer. Savage Axis 223- TEST- Cut case off behind the shoulder. Install new primer in fired case. Load into rifle using a cleaning rod to place case head in bolt face & under the extractor. Remove cleaning rod. Did this 2 times. Both primers fired .

Old test done years ago. If case is held by the extractor, like a 45 acp, no shoulder is needed to fire a 223 primer.

Live rounds are best loaded from the magazine, allowing the case head to slide up against the bolt face & under the extractor.

A round can be placed in the chamber & bolt closed to fire, but this makes the extractor bang into the case head, as it passes over the case rim.
Does this set the shoulder back on some guns? Maybe?

More CCI 450 misfires

 

[FNSafari]

Has anyone had any issues with cci 450 primers? These were bought with in last 2 years. Just getting around to loading with them. I had a 6x45 built. Im using LC brass. First time out flawless operation. About a month had passed, i loaded up 2 more powders to try and started having failed ignitions intermittently. Would take 2-4 times operating the bolt in order to get it to go off. First powder was H335, no issues. Then i tried W748 and N133 and had issues. I came home and inspected all i could think of. This was built on a savage axis action if that matters. I have another axis in 223 that i compared with and has same firing pin protruding through bolt head. Just took rifle out again yesterday and same issue again with W748 powder. Im woundering if its a bad primer issue. Here is a picture of 2 rounds that just would not ignite even after 5 tries. Its my first time with this primer in any cartridge. I have other primers i can try but did not want to waist a lot testing out a new cartridge to me. I have a good load now figured out. I can swap primers and see what happens?

No issues

 

[JB10]

So i think it narrowed it down to my issue. The primers are just fine. I had my FL sizing die set up just as i always do, but on some of the brass it was pushing the shoulders back more than others. I went out today and had 2 not fire. Thoses shoulders are .007 more set back than a fired case. I also had loaded up some that had no shoulder set back. All went off with no issues other than snug bolt closing. Now ill adjust my sizing die to just barly set it back and try some more. The good news is i have a good looking load!!. Thanks for all the reply with ideas to check, but id have to say brass was just too loose in chamber.

 

[Taildrag15X]

At the moment i do not have any loaded rounds. The ones that have been fired look seated about the same as what is for my 223. I use a lot of LC for 223 bolt rifles. To remove the crimp i cut it out with a hand held Lyman tool specifically for that. I took apart the bolt with the issue and looked at it hard and compared it with another one i have in 223. All looks the same. I could swap springs from one rifle to the other but can not swap complete bolts due to head spacing. The 6x45 is a shouldered barrel installed by a smith.

Did you clean the bolt parts good? Only twice have I ever had a failure to fire w/450's, bad head spaced brass and a tiny little piece of something in the bolt.

 

[CharlieNC]

About two years ago I started having problems in three different calibers and rifles, and know a couple of guys who did as well. Seating the primers much more firmly resolved it greatly.

 

[JB10]

Did you clean the bolt parts good? Only twice have I ever had a failure to fire w/450's, bad head spaced brass and a tiny little piece of something in the bolt.

Yes i cleaned it after each use. Took completely apart. Even checked all internals compared with a 223 axis i have. All looked same.

 

[KMW 1954]

Just received 1k CCI450 from MidWayUSA just before Christmas. have already been thu 4 sleeves and have had 9 FTF. All had solid primer strikes and when broken down the primers were whole and unfired.

I have been using about 1k CCI450 primers a year for the past couple years in a 223 target bolt rifle and never a problem like this.

 

[muleystalker]

The primers are the only variable. I've spent no less than 10 range sessions testing these things. Yes.. obviously the output charge is the cause of the swiping. But the primers are massively altering the burn rate on 4 different powders that I have tested. H322, Varget, TAC, and IMR 3031

And Insiders at CCI have stated specifically that the 450s and the 41s are the exact same primer. I've read it here before, and a guy on another forum PM'd me that his girlfriend actually works on that very production line.

The other variable is you are using mixed brass, different brands of brass have different internal volumes and loading them with the same loads will give some with higher pressures than others. You should always separate your brass into same brand and develop a load for each group of brass.

 

[muleystalker]

Well i think i might have found my issue. I took apart the unfired rounds, there was powder in them. Removed primers and compared with new ones. My eyes did not see anything different between them. So i checked cases at the shoulder. My fired cases were at 1.455, the f/l sized cases that i had not loaded were at 1.453 there was a little variation. The two cases that would not fire measures 1.437 thats a big difference. I can see it with them side by side. I swear these 2 had already been shot in this rifle and resized once. Now that i have a load figured out ill load up more and see what happens. Guess ill start there.

When you load them, leave the bullet long so you jam it, this will keep the case from getting pushed forward when the firing pine strikes. Do this with all the first fired brass in this gun.

 

[USMCDOC]

Well, yesterday I used 450's for the first time. The 2nd round went, "click" instead of "boom". Of course, I had the bullet jammed so, extracting caused powder spillage. I cleaned everything up and kept going. Four of the following 5 rounds also went click. I gave up at that point and went home. I took the rounds apart and made sure all the powder was out. I then took some of the cases, (6) I hadn't tried and they all went click! Next, I deprimed all the cases and primed 10 cases with regular CCI SRPs. They all went off! New Defiance action on new rifle. Cases were beforehand, uniformed, and primers set .004 below the base of the case. Also, I just purchased the 450s 3 weeks ago.

Take one of those cleaning patch holders that has the round shaft and the loop on the end of it.. cut off that round shaft at the base of it.. now you have a lil nub that is flat faced and screws into the end of the cleaning rod. Now you can use that to push the loaded round back out. Just a thought

 

[clowdis]

Just as a quick update, I took 50 .223 cases and 50 .308 cases, reamed the primer pockets and set the shoulder back .002-.003 and primed them with CCI 450 primers then loaded them with my usual load of N140. I fired all of them last week with temps in the mid 50's and had zero failure to fire. While I won't say that this is definitive I think it is a good indication that with proper case care the 450 primers will do fine.

 

[markm87]

The other variable is you are using mixed brass, different brands of brass have different internal volumes and loading them with the same loads will give some with higher pressures than others. You should always separate your brass into same brand and develop a load for each group of brass.

I've loaded mixed brass for 30 years for some loads. I do sort off the "heavy" stuff where there's a clear internal case volume variance. MEN brass, the old PMP brass, etc.

For OTMs, I definitely sort off brass to improve consistency.

 

[JB10]

Well i know now it was not a primer issue i was having. When sizing my brass for the first time im not pushing the shoulders back now. Just necking it up to 6mm. Makes it chamber tight but all primers are firing.