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Case Volume vs. Weight

Good to see multivariate research being done on this topic. I went ahead and did a follow up test where I held powder charge, seating, primer weight, primer seating depth, etc. constant and then varied brass weight. In a nutshell, sought to see if brass weight was a consideration after identifying the optimal charge, seating, etc. What I found was that the lightest brass showed worse precision (statistically significantly) than average and heavier brass in the lot. Overall collectively, all of the data suggests that while powder charge, seating, etc. play a large role in precision, once those factors are optimized in your load, brass weight does become a factor in precision but only the lightest brass in the lot will have poor precision. Practically speaking, seems like it’s worth the 5-10 minutes to weigh the 100 cases in the lot and cull out the lightest pieces to gain further advantage in precision.
I've run a similar test with my .308 Lapua brass, which wasn't just about the difference in case weight but also the measured case volumes of those cases and the relationship. Since I've found some correlation between case weight and case volume, I was interested just how to use a sorting method that would help with consistencies. I've posted about this on a previous thread. In that thread I mentioned I compared the lightest to the heaviest and found a significant difference between them. What I also did was fire all the brass in 5 shot groupings in their sorted order progressing from the lighter through the heavier. And what I saw was very consistent groups from one to the next. Comparing the lightest to the heaviest did show a significant shift in location for the center of the groups.

I think whether the lightest brass or the heaviest brass is worse on paper probably depends on where the load is within the accuracy node. Just as seating depth changes case volume effecting internal ballistics, case with consistent volume is an important factor. Sorting by weight (being much easier than measuring actual volume) and culling out the extreme/outliers appears in my and your testing to help with getting constant results.

Lapua Brass weight measurements.jpg
 
Bryan - thanks for posting the video. I have sorted and tested brass by weight and volume for some time, and it can make a demonstrable difference. One thing to be cautious of is that results obtained can sometimes be specific to a particular brand of brass, or even a specific cartridge, and thus the conclusions are not always "universal". In any event, I'm curious as to the notion that "light" brass exhibited poorer precision than the other two weight groups. I have not noticed such a trend during my testing. Have you considered that the weight range (0.3 gr) of the "light" brass could be a contributing factor, as least in comparison to the "average" brass, which had a narrower weight range. Of course, the "heavy" brass had the same weight range as the "light" brass, so something else is obviously also at work. Finally, you mentioned testing primer weight. Have you ever made a video of the primer weight testing results? I think many would find them interesting. Thanks again for posting these videos, they are very informative.
 
Bryan - thanks for posting the video. I have sorted and tested brass by weight and volume for some time, and it can make a demonstrable difference. One thing to be cautious of is that results obtained can sometimes be specific to a particular brand of brass, or even a specific cartridge, and thus the conclusions are not always "universal". In any event, I'm curious as to the notion that "light" brass exhibited poorer precision than the other two weight groups. I have not noticed such a trend during my testing. Have you considered that the weight range (0.3 gr) of the "light" brass could be a contributing factor, as least in comparison to the "average" brass, which had a narrower weight range. Of course, the "heavy" brass had the same weight range as the "light" brass, so something else is obviously also at work. Finally, you mentioned testing primer weight. Have you ever made a video of the primer weight testing results? I think many would find them interesting. Thanks again for posting these videos, they are very informative.
Thanks for tuning into the videos. There is always question about the generalizability of any test results but with good test methodology, I find that results do tend to generalize to similar applications (speaking from a general science approach). For example, testing done with a well built, well tuned rifle shot from a solid platform tend to generalize to those types of applications, and generalizability of this application to say a hunting rifle is questionable. I get many messages from various shooters who shoot small and large caliber in this type of application who provide anecdotal evidence of generalizability. I also have conducted tests on things that varied quite a bit (e.g., tuners with vastly different designs) and found identical results. While I would love to have 30 rifles to replicate all my tests, that’s not at all feasible. If you or anybody else is wondering if any of my results generalize to your rig, then I suggest conducting the test yourself or donating the means to do the test to somebody like me who can do the test. People have donated to me in this manner and I have been able to replicate results with different cartridges, rig type, etc. I also will conduct the statistical analyses if somebody else tests and collects the data but doesn’t know how to analyze it. I just ask that they work with me ahead of time to develop the test procedure and database so that I do not have to conduct a review of the method post hoc and/or reorganize a database to make it amenable to analysis. Anyway, I am always looking to put more data out there to help answer questions such as generalizability but need support to be able to do so. I have a Patreon page where people can donate…my YouTube channel is also enable to do so. As for primer weight, yes, I did a series a while back and, more recently, a comparison of the point of impact of various primer weights at 200 yards. This is the first video in the series:
 
I've run a similar test with my .308 Lapua brass, which wasn't just about the difference in case weight but also the measured case volumes of those cases and the relationship. Since I've found some correlation between case weight and case volume, I was interested just how to use a sorting method that would help with consistencies. I've posted about this on a previous thread. In that thread I mentioned I compared the lightest to the heaviest and found a significant difference between them. What I also did was fire all the brass in 5 shot groupings in their sorted order progressing from the lighter through the heavier. And what I saw was very consistent groups from one to the next. Comparing the lightest to the heaviest did show a significant shift in location for the center of the groups.

I think whether the lightest brass or the heaviest brass is worse on paper probably depends on where the load is within the accuracy node. Just as seating depth changes case volume effecting internal ballistics, case with consistent volume is an important factor. Sorting by weight (being much easier than measuring actual volume) and culling out the extreme/outliers appears in my and your testing to help with getting constant results.

View attachment 1469542
Nice! I am on the practical side of things which is why I chose to simply sort by weight (a 5-10 minute ordeal with 100 cases) rather than spend hours doing whatever with water or spending big $ on some gadget that measures volume. I just wanted to do something that most shooters can easily do within the means they have available so that it is useful to a broad audience.

Thanks for doing this testing and let me know if there is anything I can do to support further testing. I just replied to this thread about generalizability of findings and it looks like our tests merge well with vastly different cartridges - .308 Win and 6PPC.
 
Some of the reason for a variance in correlation between case weight and volume is because there is some variability in the extractor groove in a given lot of cartridges which contributes to weight variation.
Right on. You don't know if the wt variation is in the case head or the body. There has been several nice charts put on this website plotting large numbers of cases for Volume Vs Wt. It's a scatter chart. No correlation.

I always go back to what do the guys do that are at the top of short range and long range Regional or National compitition. I don't always trust tables and graphs guys put together. Plotting something like groups vs volume variation with a factory rifle with a crappy barrel are questionable. You can measure wt but it's probably not reasonable to put result variation due to conditions and shooter skills into a graph of wt. VS shooter skills and group size. I cannot shoot the same good load into the same size group over and over again.
 
I've run a similar test with my .308 Lapua brass, which wasn't just about the difference in case weight but also the measured case volumes of those cases and the relationship. Since I've found some correlation between case weight and case volume, I was interested just how to use a sorting method that would help with consistencies. I've posted about this on a previous thread. In that thread I mentioned I compared the lightest to the heaviest and found a significant difference between them. What I also did was fire all the brass in 5 shot groupings in their sorted order progressing from the lighter through the heavier. And what I saw was very consistent groups from one to the next. Comparing the lightest to the heaviest did show a significant shift in location for the center of the groups.

I think whether the lightest brass or the heaviest brass is worse on paper probably depends on where the load is within the accuracy node. Just as seating depth changes case volume effecting internal ballistics, case with consistent volume is an important factor. Sorting by weight (being much easier than measuring actual volume) and culling out the extreme/outliers appears in my and your testing to help with getting constant results.

View attachment 1469542
I agree with this. One thing some people don't give much thought to is they take new, unfired brass, and compare internal volume. That doesn't work in real world, as what matters is what the volume is AFTER the brass has conformed to the chamber. In my experience, oftentimes the unfired thinner brass will show lower case fill volume - which is opposite of what it would typically be once fired. I wonder, in the study done above, whether they used fired brass in a particular chamber versus new brass.
 
One of the most common disagreements we see is whether you should group your cases by volume or weight. While you'll find a lot of talk about what somebody thinks or feels, it's very rare to find a post that includes actual data. And even when data is provided it is usually not statistically relevant. Today I finally found a paper (written in 2009) that looks reputable and informative in which they actually performed a true scientific statistical analysis.

The authors tested 400 cartridge cases looking for a way to statistically identify the most important factors in optimizing cartridge cases. Their conclusions were that powder charge and bullet seating (in that order) had the greatest effect on precision (group size). But what was interesting to me was that in the process they tested the effect of other factors, including case volume and weight. While they didn't find that either had as large effect as powder charge, bullet seating depth, and primer weight, they did identify that case volume had a more significant effect than case weight.

In other words, they found that case weight was not as good a way to control group sizes, volume was better. The table below shows that volume is a more significant factor in group sizes.

View attachment 1150420

A lower Pr value indicates a larger effect on group size (precision).

In reality they verify what a lot of people already knew; powder charge, seating depth, and primers have the greatest effect on group size. Another thing that their data proves is that neck inside diameter has about the same effect as case volume so from what I see after adjusting the three factors above, if you want even more precision, then you should adjust case volume and neck inside diameter (neck tension).

But I just felt that it was interesting to have finally found a study that used a truly statistical process that actually proves that case weight does not have as great as an effect on group size as case volume does. I've always tried to argue that point but without an unbiased, statistical analysis you always end the discussion by agreeing to disagree. This proves that grouping by actual case volume will have a greater effect on precision than grouping by case weights.
This test is actually analyzed correctly for determining the effects of the variables associated with our reloading process. We cannot isolate one variable as much as we try because we use different components on every shot. These differences may or may not bias the results. Since this is one test we can question the whether the results are repeatable but for this test the results are what they are. Someone mentioned that the study proved something. Unfortunately that is not the case. This one study showed correlations that some variables have a greater effect on the final results than others. It would require more studies to actually verify those correlations and any attempt to quantify them.

Expanding a little on what some others have posted analyzing volume versus weight it only necessary to examine the effect of volume on the internal ballistics. It is chamber volume at firing that matters. This volume includes the volume of the brass that is in the chamber. The effect of variations in chamber volume for a given charge will affect chamber pressure. This is the physics involved. As for weight only the amount of weight variance that affects chamber volume matters. Weighing two different brands of brass and trying to match weight may not match volume because of the differences in extraction groove tolerances and brass density (C240 and C260 have different densities). Matching weight for the same lot of brass from the same product production line would be more closely related to volume. Several years ago a member of a different forum checked volume of different 308 cases (lots and manufactures). Cases were fired, FLS, trimmed, measured then checked to correlate weight to volume. As expected for cases that are of uniform external dimensions there is a very good correlation of weight to volume. Ultimately both weight and volume affect the results but it is volume this is the primary and most significant effect and weight is a less significant effect because the difference in weight may or may not effect volume.

case weight vs volume.png
 
Whenever I get a new batch of brass, I take a sample and weight them and also measure the volume with H2O (preferably after fire forming before sizing, though I've also done it with virgin brass out of curiosity). Here are some of that data I've collected as well as some from Peterson Brass showing weights vs volumes:

Case Volumes and Weights.jpg

1693242902075.jpeg
 
Like some of the other responders, I've determined case volumes using water and plotted them versus case weight for years. I do this using relatively small numbers of cases, usually 10 at a time, for the purpose of determining an average case volume for use with QuickLoad. Those that wish to believe that case weight has little to no relation to case volume have clearly not done this themselves. In fact fact, I have tested Lapua, Alpha, Norma, Nosler, Starline, Remington, PPU, and Federal brands, in at least three different cartidges, and they all exhibit a strong [inverse] linear correlation between case weight and case volume. That is to say, as case weight increases, case volume decreases.

This correlation makes sense, as the only places on a fired case that has expanded fully in the chamber where the amount of brass (i.e. weight) might not directly correlate to some change in internal volume are the primer pocket and the extractor groove. In my experience, the extractor grooves within a single Lot# of brass do not vary noticeably, as they shouldn't. Current technology is more than up to the task of cutting a uniform extractor groove within a single Lot# of brass. Likewise, if the primer pocket diameter wasn't reasonably consistent, the primers either might not fit in the primer pocket, or might fall right out. We all know this isn't the case either, as there isn't much room for error in terms of primer pocket diameter. Primer pocket depth can clearly vary, but it's generally not by huge amounts, and I prepare the primer pockets with a uniforming tool, anyhow.

One tool to estimate how well the data points fit a straight line plot is Pearson's Correlation Coefficient (r), which is sometimes also reported by graphing programs as r^2, such that r^2 will always have a positive value between 0 and 1. The closer the value of r (or r^2) to 1, the better the linear correlation. Correlation coefficients greater than 0.5 indicate a linear correlation, and those greater than about 0.75 indicate a strong linear correlation. For example, the value of r^2 for the data plotted in post #27 above by @Doom is 0.9277, indicating a very strong linear correlation between case weight and case volume. With such a solid data set, most don't need the correlation coefficient to tell them the data represent a linear function; their eyes can do that. Nonetheless, it is also clear that there are a few points that are slight outliers and do not fall directly on the best line approximation.

What can be taken from this is that using case weight as a surrogate for case volume is not perfect. Nonetheless, it is also clear that cases sorted by weight as a surrogate for volume will generally have less volume variance than than if nothing was done at all. And that's what we're really after as shooters with any sorting process we might use, isn't it? We can sort things and thereby reduce variance, which we hope translates better precision on the target. None of the sorting techniques we use are perfect. It would be asking too much for that to be true. But we can sort things into "like" sub-groups and make them more consistent than they would be if nothing were done. For that purpose, sorting cases by weight simply works, and it is far easier and less time consuming than determining water volume. Frankly, I typically like to have 300-400 pcs of brass dedicated to a single F-TR rifle, and I have multiple F-TR rifles that I shoot regularly. I would not attempt to sort thousands of cases using water volume measurements. In fact, if I had to do that I would probably quit shooting and take up knitting. Fortunately, sorting cases by weight is relatively painless as I generally sort them into "light", "medium", and "heavy" sorting groups, whose limits/ranges are determined from analysis of ~50-100 case weights.

Here are a few examples:

Starline 223 Rem Lot# 1513.jpg

PPU 5.56 NATO.jpg

Lapua .30-06 Case Vol vs Wt.jpg

CV 95 SMK Brass Vol vs Wt.jpg

As can be seen, the r values indicate strong linear correlation for each data set. It is not unreasonable to infer from this that sorting case by weight will improve the volume consistency in sorted sub-groups. Like everything, whether doing so would be of benefit in a particular shooting discipline will have to be determined by the individual. In F-Class, we use relatively long strings of fire (20+ shots) and it is my belief that improving the consistency of case volume using case weight as a surrogate volume measurement can improve ES/SD over not sorting cases at all. So I do it. What I can state with absolute certainty is that sorting cases by weight will never cause case volume variance to increase. So for me, it's worth the effort, but everyone has to make the decision whether the investment of time is worth the potential gain for themselves.
 
You know what's more important than statistical nonsense?
It's knowing how to box in a valid test to begin with.
It's holding enough understanding of the tested attributes to intelligently consider their limitations and results.

This was run with a factory Savage in 223,, in cluster-F conditions.
The chamber dimensions were not declared, nor considered. I didn't see where there were applicable brass preps for these different items. I didn't see load development efforts or reloading efforts.
There is not enough information there, in too many areas, to form credible conclusions.
It could have been completely made up, and for us, it might as well have been.

Someone suggested that peer critics should simply ignore this testing. Yeah, maybe I wasted a minute breezing through that 'paper'. I could just let it go.
But when the [PR>whatever] goes to 4 places for neck OD, it's laughably difficult to do.
 
You know what's more important than statistical nonsense?
It's knowing how to box in a valid test to begin with.
It's holding enough understanding of the tested attributes to intelligently consider their limitations and results.

This was run with a factory Savage in 223,, in cluster-F conditions.
The chamber dimensions were not declared, nor considered. I didn't see where there were applicable brass preps for these different items. I didn't see load development efforts or reloading efforts.
There is not enough information there, in too many areas, to form credible conclusions.
It could have been completely made up, and for us, it might as well have been.

Someone suggested that peer critics should simply ignore this testing. Yeah, maybe I wasted a minute breezing through that 'paper'. I could just let it go.
But when the [PR>whatever] goes to 4 places for neck OD, it's laughably difficult to do.
That is all so true. And, as Nedludd indicated, those who have weight sorted (a LOT of) brass and recorded the results between the different lots, both on a chrono and in impact shifts, I doubt they would be naysayers that weight does, more than not, affect case volume - which does affect impact points and velocities. I know a lot of guys who don't weigh cases, just dump powder straight from the hopper, don't do much brass prep at all and they post great scores. But that doesn't mean their scores, given their excellent skills, couldn't have been made just a tad better. I guess we all put a value on our time to different degrees. Nowadays, my time isn't worth too much, so I don't feel like I wasted it. I'm sure others don't feel that way.
 
That is all so true. And, as Nedludd indicated, those who have weight sorted (a LOT of) brass and recorded the results between the different lots, both on a chrono and in impact shifts, I doubt they would be naysayers that weight does, more than not, affect case volume - which does affect impact points and velocities. I know a lot of guys who don't weigh cases, just dump powder straight from the hopper, don't do much brass prep at all and they post great scores. But that doesn't mean their scores, given their excellent skills, couldn't have been made just a tad better. I guess we all put a value on our time to different degrees. Nowadays, my time isn't worth too much, so I don't feel like I wasted it. I'm sure others don't feel that way.
FWIW - the difference sorting cases by weight makes in terms of velocity ES/SD in the relatively small .223 Rem cases in very noticeable in my hands. In fact, it can be enough to potentially make a difference in how the load shoots. It is much less so in larger .308 Win cases, where the effect on average velocity is typically smaller than the SD. However, I still sort .308 Win cases by weight for F-TR matches, largely due to psychological reasons. Sorting cases by weight will never make anything worse. Fortunately, I have plenty of time and it gives my life meaning LOL.
 
FWIW - the difference sorting cases by weight makes in terms of velocity ES/SD in the relatively small .223 Rem cases in very noticeable in my hands. In fact, it can be enough to potentially make a difference in how the load shoots. It is much less so in larger .308 Win cases, where the effect on average velocity is typically smaller than the SD. However, I still sort .308 Win cases by weight for F-TR matches, largely due to psychological reasons. Sorting cases by weight will never make anything worse. Fortunately, I have plenty of time and it gives my life meaning LOL.
Yes - I too have noticed that the smaller the case, the bigger the benefit
 
largely due to psychological reasons
After I started weighing cases, then it became wondering about primer pocket uniformity, then neck turning, etc. Sometimes I wish I never did those things to start with. But once you see how bad some of the cases are (or lots), it makes it pretty hard to not want to do it on most brass. Now, I can't stop myself from turning necks on varmint loads. Might have to see a gun therapist.
 
After I started weighing cases, then it became wondering about primer pocket uniformity, then neck turning, etc. Sometimes I wish I never did those things to start with. But once you see how bad some of the cases are (or lots), it makes it pretty hard to not want to do it on most brass. Now, I can't stop myself from turning necks on varmint loads. Might have to see a gun therapist.
The good news is that addressing these concerns, real or imagined, will usually never make the brass worse, even if it does not offer some tangible benefit other than peace of mind. The way I see it, it's my time to waste, right? ;)
 
One of the most common disagreements we see is whether you should group your cases by volume or weight. While you'll find a lot of talk about what somebody thinks or feels, it's very rare to find a post that includes actual data. And even when data is provided it is usually not statistically relevant. Today I finally found a paper (written in 2009) that looks reputable and informative in which they actually performed a true scientific statistical analysis.

The authors tested 400 cartridge cases looking for a way to statistically identify the most important factors in optimizing cartridge cases. Their conclusions were that powder charge and bullet seating (in that order) had the greatest effect on precision (group size). But what was interesting to me was that in the process they tested the effect of other factors, including case volume and weight. While they didn't find that either had as large effect as powder charge, bullet seating depth, and primer weight, they did identify that case volume had a more significant effect than case weight.

In other words, they found that case weight was not as good a way to control group sizes, volume was better. The table below shows that volume is a more significant factor in group sizes.

View attachment 1150420

A lower Pr value indicates a larger effect on group size (precision).

In reality they verify what a lot of people already knew; powder charge, seating depth, and primers have the greatest effect on group size. Another thing that their data proves is that neck inside diameter has about the same effect as case volume so from what I see after adjusting the three factors above, if you want even more precision, then you should adjust case volume and neck inside diameter (neck tension).

But I just felt that it was interesting to have finally found a study that used a truly statistical process that actually proves that case weight does not have as great as an effect on group size as case volume does. I've always tried to argue that point but without an unbiased, statistical analysis you always end the discussion by agreeing to disagree. This proves that grouping by actual case volume will have a greater effect on precision than grouping by case weights.
Does case volume or wt. matter once the bullet moves forward with the powder burning behind it?
 

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