Case Resizing

[rwj]

Seeking input on whether the Redding Type S full length die (body & neck sized simultaneously) produces cases having less neck runout than those formed using separate full length and bushing dies?

 

[jepp2]

than those formed using separate full length and bushing dies?

Not quite sure of your question. If you size using a separate full length die, why would you want to use a bushing die?

I've probably spent far more time working to get loaded ammo with the lowest runout than I probably should have. Regarding sizing, this is my experience:

Tied for best (lowest) case neck runout - either a FL sizing die with the neck honed to about 0.0015 under the loaded case neck diameter, or using a Redding Body die followed by the LCD (Lee Collet Die).

2'nd place, A Redding Competition bushing neck sizing die using Whidden CRT bushings.

Worse (higher) case neck runout - A Redding FL or neck sizing die using a Redding bushing.

But I don't really think any of the improvement in case neck and or bullet runout has shown up on the target. I do it mostly just to feel better about the ammo I produce.

 

[rwj]

Regrets for the confusion caused by incorrectly indicating that I’m using a full length die! I’m currently using separate Redding body and neck dies and wondering if it’s worth nearly $100 to buy their full length die that uses neck bushings? Thanks for sharing your experience that it has not shown on the target, that’s what really matters!

 

[Willie]

Years back, German Salazar did testing that answers your question.

He found that on unturned brass, run-out was less if you neck sized first. He also found that on turned brass, there was no difference, if I remember correctly.

 

[CTanM]

Runout...

Is mythical...

And will make you crazy....

Just eyeball them and sell your concentricity gauge, then use the money to buy a huge box of fireworks.

Statistics have shown you will live a happier life....

 

[Shynloco]

rwj,
Based strictly upon my own experiences and having done it both ways, what I've found works the best (for me using Redding Dies, Lapua Brass and now testing Peterson Brass in 260 Rem), I first fireform my brass regardless of the brand; slightly turn the necks (using a Redding Type S Bushing Die) just to cleans up the brass and then again run the brass through the Redding Type S Bushing Die with the appropriate Neck Bushing. I also make sure the Die itself floats (I use Lee Die Lock Rings that have the rubber ring between the die lock ring and Press surface to enhance the floating feature) as well as the Neck Bushing rattles when you shake the die before screwing it into the Press. Then I run the resized brass through a GOOD Concentricity Gauge (21st Century or Accuracy One) and I consistently get .02 or below runout. When I run the brass through TWO different dies, I don't get quite as consistent runout and more of a variation then when only ONE REDDING DIE is employed. That process has worked the best for me in 4 of the calibers I reload for. I don't even bother turning my brass for my Gas Guns. Though I've tested that process, no better yield in the brass runout and my experiences with Gas Guns tells me Gas Guns are more dependent on the load, even using JP Precision barrels/chambers vs across an counter Gas Guns.

Alex

 

[JimSC]

Until recently I used to depin, use a Redding body die, then follow up with a Lee Collet neck die. When I went to small flash hole cases the universal depinner had too large a pin so I bought the Redding FL bushing die to size and depin. However I just purchased a universal depinner that has a small flash hole pin. The Redding FL does ok but about 10% of my cases end up with .0015 or more runout so I think I will switch back to the body die/collet neck die again

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Until recently I used to depin, use a Redding body die, then follow up with a Lee Collet neck die. When I went to small flash hole cases the universal depinner had too large a pin so I bought the Redding FL bushing die to size and depin. However I just purchased a universal depinner that has a small flash hole pin. The Redding FL does ok but about 10% of my cases end up with .0015 or more runout so I think I will switch back to the body die/collet neck die again

you think you could do half and half and give us a report on what that .001 runout does to your group size and how much extra time it takes to use 3 dies as opposed to one? I think it would be enlightening to the readers to see if they think it will be beneficial to them.

 

[ebb]

I was listening to a guy at St Louis BR club and he told the group standing there that if you seated in to the lands that it didn't matter about run out as the lead straightened out the round to fit the chamber. After his group walked away I asked my host if this guy knew what he was talking about and he said the guy was a national champion bench rest shooter. I don't know what to think.

 

[nmkid]

Don't forget the bushings themselves are $14-$16 a piece.

 

[CTanM]

I’m not saying runout doesn’t matter.

I’m not saying it does.

I hold no national titles. And I’m not overly concerned with runout. I will toss an obviously crooked piece of brass...

I’m sure those that do hold national titles are concerned with runout... but then again they are concerned with everything.... which is what makes them great.

But about a month ago I sorted a loaded 50 round box of ammunition. Why? Because I bought a gauge that I didn’t need and I was bored.

The average was about .004 if I culled the six pieces that were .006-.008

I also had five that were .002 or less....

I took those 11 rounds to the range.

I’m shooting a .284 with 180 smks over 4831.

Testing was done at 100 yards

The five that were .002 shot about .6
Which is about a two tenths worse than the gun normally shoots.

Fluke?

The 6 bullets with “excessive” runout shot in the .4s

Witnessed by two other shooters.

The whole deal could be a fluke. I don’t know. But I am going to sort them again in lots of five and shoot 5 different groups just out of curiosity. Needless to say.... I just load my bullets and shoot them. They’re precise enough for me

 

[JimSC]

you think you could do half and half and give us a report on what that .001 runout does to your group size and how much extra time it takes to use 3 dies as opposed to one? I think it would be enlightening to the readers to see if they think it will be beneficial to them.

I will do that with the next .260 brass I process. I will shoot the ones I loaded today on Thursday then process this weekend.

I will run 15 through the bushing die without expander, 15 with expander ball, and 15 using the body die and neck sizing die. Time will not be easy to measure, I depin, clean, and anneal before any sizing. I don't rush my loads, it takes me probably 4 to 5 hours from start to finish for 50 rounds

 

[ClassCat]

I’m not saying runout doesn’t matter.

I’m not saying it does.

I hold no national titles. And I’m not overly concerned with runout. I will toss an obviously crooked piece of brass...

I’m sure those that do hold national titles are concerned with runout... but then again they are concerned with everything.... which is what makes them great.

But about a month ago I sorted a loaded 50 round box of ammunition. Why? Because I bought a gauge that I didn’t need and I was bored.

The average was about .004 if I culled the six pieces that were .006-.008

I also had five that were .002 or less....

I took those 11 rounds to the range.

I’m shooting a .284 with 180 smks over 4831.

Testing was done at 100 yards

The five that were .002 shot about .6
Which is about a two tenths worse than the gun normally shoots.

Fluke?

The 6 bullets with “excessive” runout shot in the .4s

Witnessed by two other shooters.

The whole deal could be a fluke. I don’t know. But I am going to sort them again in lots of five and shoot 5 different groups just out of curiosity. Needless to say.... I just load my bullets and shoot them. They’re precise enough for me

Two Groups prove nothing. 5 of each is a fair start. I M H O
I made some bullets on a 790 jacket last week and used different core seating pressure. Shot 3 -5 shot groups with each. That was part 1 of the test. Part 2 will be 5-5 shot groups of both bullets. Part 3 will be 5-5 shot groups with each.I will then see which is better.All bullets were tested with my Unlimited Gun which is in my avatar.

 

[dgeesaman]

I was listening to a guy at St Louis BR club and he told the group standing there that if you seated in to the lands that it didn't matter about run out as the lead straightened out the round to fit the chamber. After his group walked away I asked my host if this guy knew what he was talking about and he said the guy was a national champion bench rest shooter. I don't know what to think.

Being able to produce great results does not endow one with a deeper knowledge of what or why things happen.

To prove that the lands “straighten” a seated bullet would entail a rigorous set of experiments that are different from the activities being a competitive shooter. It’s a tantalizing theory to consider though.

David

 

[ebb]

When you push a tapered bullet (male) into a tapered (female hole how could it not center the bullet if push in far enough?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

When you push a tapered bullet (male) into a tapered (female hole how could it not center the bullet if push in far enough?

The base is bigger than the rest of the bullet

 

[ebb]

Yes you are right, but what does the base have to do with centering a bullet in the rifling. Is not the bullet going to center it self in the lead long before the base of the bullet gets there?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

thought you were talking about the bullet in the case

 

[Bart B.]

When you push a tapered bullet (male) into a tapered (female) hole how could it not center the bullet if push in far enough?

Yes, the bullet ogive will center in the rifling. But it's axis is at a small angle to the bore axis. The rest of the bullet will eventually center in the bore, but the rifling engraving on the bullet jacket where first started will be uneven around the bullet. That unbalances the bullet a teeny weenie bit. It jumps off the bore axis upon axis due to centrifugal forces.

It's my opinion that the bullet axis angle to the bore axis that's the issue. Bullet runout numbers vary with a given bullet axis angle to the case body axis depending on how far the dial indicator touch point on the bullet is forward from the front case reference. Out of round issues of the case at its two resting points influence runout numbers.