Case fillers: Fact or Fiction?

[cncmill]

I was told by a friend of an "old school" benchrest shooter about using a case filler when the powder charge didn't fill the case completely. Corn meal or something similar was put on top of the powder charge to fill the case or even give a compressed load when the bullet was seated. Has anyone ever heard of this or tried it? I assume it was done at the bench while shooting so the corn meal would not mix with the powder during travel.

 

[bigedp51]

Corn meal, cream of wheat, kapok, Dacron pillow filling, paper wads all work with straight sided cases without problems. On a bottle neck cases Dacron pillow filling works well and doesn't cause pressure spikes. Paper wads were used to separate the powder from the fillers and the load didn't have to be made at the bench. I used my .270 to hunt squirrels using reduced loads with Dacron filler to hold the powder in the base of the case.

One way around adding any fillers is to use powders made for reduced load that have large bulk grains like IMR-4759, Trail Boss or even H4895

 

[oneflyer]

I have one word for this practice ----DANGEROUS----. If the filler somehow compacts inside the case you have an explosive possibility that may take your life. A few years ago at our range a member loaded a round with corn meal as a filler to insure that the powder in the case remained in contact with primer insuring proper ignition. Somehow, we don't know how, the corn meal solidified inside the case, as was evidenced by pulling other loaded rounds. The round that he fired tore the bolt out of his rifle, exploded the action and stock and almost cost him his eyesight.
IMO I think its downright dumb.

 

[fguffey]

“I was told by a friend of an "old school" benchrest shooter about using a case filler when the powder charge didn't fill the case completely. Corn meal or something similar was put on top of the powder charge to fill the case or even give a compressed load when the bullet was seated. Has anyone ever heard of this or tried it? I assume it was done at the bench while shooting so the corn meal would not mix with the powder during travel”


I hope you misunderstood his instructions, it would help to know what chamber you are ‘fire forming’ for, I agree with One flyer, I know it sounds cute to claim “I am a fire former and here is how I do it etc., etc..”, again, I form first then fire, then there are times I have to finish forming by firing, I do not suggest anyone attempt my methods and or techniques, rational, it requires keeping up with a few details, so, I form 30 Gibbs cases 2 different ways, one way requires fire forming, the other way is I use dies to form the cases to 30 Gibbs, meaning I load the cases and fire them, when ejected the cases are ejected as once fired cases, again, I cut the chamber, I know the length of the chamber, I adjust the die to or off the shell holder to control sizing. I am a fan of cutting down on all that case travel when firing and sizing.

There is a problem as OneFlyer said with Wheaties, Cheerios and grits etc., explain, a train wreck was advertised, free, with a promise of no gouging on prices for food, bleachers were set up and the railroads furnished two complete trains, on the day of the event they backed the two trains off, fired them up, kicked them in gear and stepped off, the spectators did not know what hit them, rivets, steam and parts of the boilers went ever where.

Then there is ringing, the material ahead of the powder compresses and is forced outwards against the case, every time packing is used to fire form the person doing the forming when firing should give thanks when what ever he packed in the case made it out without doing harm. . Then there is the problem that does not render a fire arm scrap every time, but has happened and can happen, my opinion, another cute and bad habit is reduced loads, I do not use reduced loads. There is something about the speed of primer burn and powder burn, it is possible for the primer to fire over the full length of the case and powder laying in the bottom of the case, we all (should know) a primer can drive a bullet into the lands with out powder, my opinion, it is possible for the primer to flash over the powder, jam the bullet into the rifling (plug the barrel), then with the bullet sitting still and no way for the slow burning powder behind the bullet to get it moving again the fire arm is rendered scrap.

The best example posted on a reloading forum was that of an owner of a Weatherby chambered to 300 Win mag, he claims there was something wrong with his Weatherby, he claimed he ‘only’ feed that Weatherby a stead diet of reduced loads, and I said it was not the last round fired that rendered his rifle scrap, I said it started to fail with the first round of reduced loads he fired, I said it was an accumulative failure of sudden shock and hammering, his rifle broke apart like glass, and everyone else said “you must have had a double charge” and I said if he found a powder that filled the case as recommended there would not have been enough room for a double charge. And I reminded a few reduced loads were tried in the early 03 Springfields, that bad habit did not last long, the old low numbers could not stand sudden shock.

“old school" benchrest” Again, I am not a bench rester.

http://www.lsjunction.com/facts/crush.htm

F. Guffey

 

[XTR]

Fillers (not corn meal) are commonly used by guys who shoot cartridges that were or still are black powder to fill the case and if shooting BP to compress the load. I think cotton and Dacron are currently the preferred fillers for the BP guys.

 

[bigedp51]

Besides this forum we also have access to some very good technical material at the main page of http://www.accurateshooter.com/

Cream of Wheat type fillers are used on straight walled cases like the 45-70 when using bullets, and should never be used with a bullet on a bottle neck case because of pressure spikes. Cream of Wheat is use for fire forming bottle neck cases "WITHOUT" a bullet in the cartridge. On a bottle neck case Dacron filler is used to hold the powder in the base of the case for uniform ignition with reduced loads of pistol powder, for example 17 grains of red dot which is called "The Load".

NOTE: Google is your best friend for finding information and cross checking and verifying information.

Case-Forming–A Few Wildcatter’s Tricks
To make my 6.5 Mystic brass, I take Winchester-brand .308 brass and run cases into a 7mmBR Full-length sizing die (no decapping rod) just far enough to form a secondary (stepped) shoulder on the neck. This reduces the neck diameter enough so that I can chamber a round for fire-forming. The false shoulder level is situated so that you feel firm bolt-closing resistance when chambering the brass.

The brass is then fire-formed WITHOUT BULLETS using Cream of Wheat over a light charge of pistol powder and any Large Rifle primer. This gently moves the shoulder forward and rarely causes neck splits. After the initial Cream of Wheat/pistol powder load, the shoulder will be about 95% formed. Forming cases this way–without bullets–reduces barrel wear and saves on the cost of components (powder and bullets). Once the brass has been fire-formed, I then size in the Lee Collet die, trim, neck-turn, chamfer the necks, and remove any burrs in the flash holes. Cases are now ready for full-pressure firings. After the first full-pressure firing, the shoulder is perfectly sharp and the case dimensions become very stable.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/gunweek075/

After forming the brass, I anneal the necks, then fire-form the cases using about 10 grains of Red Dot or Green Dot pistol powder with Cream of Wheat filler and paper towel packed in the neck.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/gunweek038/

Fire-Forming

As always, fire-forming is done by one of two methods. Most of you will fire form the brass with loaded .243 Winchester. Ackley always said to use factory loads, or reload equivalent ammo to have a “snappy” load to form the case out properly. You never want to use a reduced load to form with, since you need the pressure to form properly. If your rifle is chambered properly, you should feel a slight amount of resistance as you close the bolt on a new piece of brass. If you do not get this “feel”, you may need to seat the bullets out to .010″ to .015″ into the lands to make sure that the base of the case stays in solid contact with the bolt face. The fire-forming method I have been using more lately employs medium burn-rate pistol powders and Cream of Wheat. I will start by loading about 10 grains of SR4756 or Unique into the case, and then I fill the case up to the body shoulder junction with Cream of Wheat. I will then take a large pinch of polyester filler, which can be found at any fabric supply store, or sewing department, such as at Wal-Mart. I will then take the pinch of polyester and load it into the case so that it fills up the shoulder area of the case effectively making sure that the filler is held securely over the powder for fire-forming. During the fire-forming, I like to dry brush with a nylon bore brush every 10 to 15 rounds. This removes any loose debris from filler that has accumulated.

[Editors Note: Do NOT seat a bullet using this "Cream of Wheat" method. You can cap the case with a bit of wax to keep everything in place. However, Bob finds the wax is not necessary if the polyester filler is placed securely.]
http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/243win/

 

[bigedp51]

fguffey

“old school" benchrest” Again, I am not a bench rester.

With all the fecal debris you spread around in forums it would be nice if you went back to the High Road forum and "try" and entertain all your friends there. You should also read the links I provided above on fire forming cases and STOP your insane rambling of forming first and then firing.

In simple terms fguffey you CAN NOT make a short case longer until it is fired in a rifles chamber.

 

[cncmill]

Thanks guys for all the input. Definitely not something I want to try. I was mainly curious since I never heard of it before this one time.

 

[fguffey]

Re: Case fillers: Fact or Fiction? and a BIGEDP51D dumb statment

“In simple terms fguffey you CAN NOT make a short case longer until it is fired in a rifles chamber”

Ed, as I have said before, I feel sorry for you, again, I hear you hollering for help, please understand those that I have tried to help were no better off after I finished than when I started, most found out, too late, I run like a tree.


“In simple terms fguffey you CAN NOT make a short case longer until it is fired in a rifles chamber”

I need to know where you live, I believe I can help you with the difference between fire forming and forming, fire forming is about immediate gratification, chamber a round, pull the trigger and ‘Wha-Lah’ self promotion from chambering a round to fire forming by pulling the trigger. If you were not so obsessed with your name and Google you could avoid these embarrassing moments, well I gave you more credit than you deserve, nothing embarrasses you because, in ,my opinion, you can not be insulted, but on the outside chance someone is reading this and makes the mistake of take you serious I will clarify your statement: “fguffey you CAN NOT make a short case longer until it is fired in a rifles chamber”, when fire forming a case in a rifle chamber the case gets shorter, not longer, Hatcher knew his modified chamber with .080 thousands would lead to case head separation, he knew the case would not stretch that much with out separating, truth, he knew it would happen sooner, meaning he progressively moved the shoulder forward, Hatcher, like you did not have a clue, had he measured before and again after firing he would have know his cases were getting shorter, not longer, had the cases gotten longer when he attempted firing, his cases would have come apart as in case head separation, then there was the other mistake, I explained to you Hatcher experiment failed, again, Hatcher was correct in his assumption, then I told you about a couple of smiths built a magnificent wildcat 7mm like Gibbs, they made the reamer etc., the first 10 cases they attempted to fire form had case head separation, they used the same type receiver as Hatcher (5 of them) Hatcher did not have case head separation, my two friends did, One of them explained the problem and went straight to selling me I was wrong, and I informed him the next time happens, call me, I can tell you before you leave the shop if you are in you are going to have case head separation, or I could meet him at the range and fix the problem long enough to fire form his cases, again, remember, if he measures the case length before firing he will discover the cases got shorten when fired.

This goes back to the 16 pages of insults and venom you laced your responses with, I felt sorry for Bozo699 Wayne and others, insults and innuendos, I could not believe the monitors allowed that kind of behavior, the forum deserved better, but when forming cases with lube the case does not necessary get shorter, the case does not lock onto the chamber, the lube allows the case to slide to the rear and fill the chamber from the rear, this eliminates the risk of case head separation, (typing slower) You do not have a clue, me? on the other hand, I am not concerned with with the length of the case as to your remark “making the case longer” I am talking about making the case longer from the head of the case to the shoulder of the case, bench rest shooters are not talking about making the case longer, they are talking about making the case body longer from the head of the case to the shoulder of the case, the case gets shorter when the case fills the chamber, as to The High Forum, Clark, a descendent of Clark the gunsmith that built 45ACP said he had separation because he had excessive head space, by .004 thousandths, and I said everyone on this forum believe you but me. No mention of the receiver and no one noticed his case separated behind the case body shoulder juncture, not at the case head, meaning when his case expanded and filled the chamber neck was locked into the neck of the chamber, meaning when the case fills the chamber the case body and neck is pulled back, (did I just repeat myself), Clarks case separated behind the shoulder, meaning the case body did not lock onto the chamber, I believe Clark has acquired some bad habits, I suspect he lubed the case body, the lube prevented the case from locking onto the chamber, I believe the neck and shoulder of the case was pulled off, meaning the neck and a very small part of the case body locked onto the chamber, and he said it happened every time he attempted to fire form cases in that chamber, and I suggested forming first would eliminate the problem.

“In simple terms fguffey you CAN NOT make a short case longer until it is fired in a rifles chamber”

There are not many bench resters, smith, reloaders understand how dumb your statement is, Cylinder brass is 2.650 long from the case head to the mouth of the case, for me that is a can not fail to fit any chamber that used the 30/06 as a parent case, I form 338/06 cases from 30/06 cases without changing the length of the case from the case head to the shoulder of the case, neck? that is different, the necks shorten .035 thousandths. Same for 35 Whelen, but I am a case former, when I want the case to cover all the chamber I use 280 Remington cases, the 280 Remington case is longer than the 30/06 by .041 thousandths, AND! the shoulder of the 280 R is ahead of the 30/06 shoulder .051 thousandths, for those that can keep up, when forming cases it is not necessary to start with a short, unless you are the author of this dumb statement “In simple terms fguffey you CAN NOT make a short case longer until it is fired in a rifles chamber” and at the risk of repeating myself, fire formers know the case gets shorter, not longer Unless, I repeat, unless a bench rester is lubing his cases, and that separates me from bench resters and fire formers, I form first then fire, I am, the fan of cutting down on all that case travel.

F. Guffey

 

[bigedp51]

I have brand new .243 cases that are .009 shorter than minimum headspace.

New case length 1.621

Minimum headspace or GO 1.630

My rifles headspace 1.632

This is .011 head clearance or air space between the bolt face and the rear of the catridge case.

“fguffey you CAN NOT make a short case longer until it is fired in a rifles chamber”

Your eyes are still brown and writing overly long, verbose, fecal debris filled nonsensical postings will not change the laws of physics.

Lets not forget your the same person who stated a .308 cartridge will not fit in a 30-06 chamber.

Oops, fguffey is wrong "AGAIN"

Tell me fguffey did the case below get shorter when it was fired?