Cartridge for deer in the forest.

[GSPV]

About the slug gun, I guess we have a definition problem of "in the woods". Where I've hunted "in the woods", the average visibility was, at the outside, 50 yards and often tighter than that.

At that distance, a rifled-barrel slug gun that one has taken the time to practice with, is going to give acceptable accuracy and, if you put it through the shoulder, the deer is going to drop right there.

If you hit a stalk of cane, a vine or shoot through elephant leaf, it's still going to hit the shoulder and the deer is still going down right there. You won't consistently get that result with a 223.

Now, if you are talking about *open* woods where you can see at some range, then, yeah, a 223 is far preferable to a slug gun.

OTOH, there are cartridges with excellent big game bullets available that would be preferable to the 223.

 

[rwk]

A good old 12ga. slug with the new stuff.

 

[XTR]

IMHO if we are talking ethics and clean kills, I would rate a .223 FAR higher than muzzle loaders, shotgun slugs, and bows. I would never question or try to take those away from anyone though. There is room for all of us in the great outdoors and we need to stick together. The antis will do enough to tear us apart, we don't need to hurt ourselves.

+1!!! Very well said. I've never understood why ethics are so questioned with a 223 & then glorified with a bow. Not taking anything away from the bow or bow hunters; but the 223 is capable of anything a bow can do; exponentially.

You obviously don't understand modern muzzle loaders. My 50 cal inline will group 250gr 45cal sabots inside of a 4" group at 200 yards, and with a BDC reticle I've taken deer from 65 to 150 yards and the only miss was one in the early morning when there wasn't enough light and haze for my partner to get a good range and he ranged the wrong tree. (that was a clean miss low) Nothing else has gone more than 30 yards, and it's kept my freezer full for the last 4 yrs. In fact I've killed way more deer with my muzzle loader than my center fires. Primitive season in TN is open doe season and in the unit I hunt in I can take 4 deer in primitive. Don't dismiss modern muzzle loaders.

You can with what ever is legal in your state, that's your choice. I like me some big bores, and for heavy cover where the shots are all going to be under 150 or so I'll take one of my 45-70s ever time, and for elevated stands, I'll take a 7-08 or a 308.

 

[Rem6br]

Yea the muzzel loader has come a long way and mine too has kept my freezer
full haven't had one go any father than 20 yards. For center fire leave the pea shooters at home and go with no less than the .243 the .308 is still my favorite cartridge for deer. The .223 has come up a lot here but don't really see much difference it and the .222, penetration is what kills not speed. Don't get me wrong you wreck the lungs on a deer and he's done so each to his own but I would not hunt with a .223 when there are far better cartridges to hunt with

 

[BigDMT]

I like to use BB guns, really fast ones of course :

 

[timeout]

You obviously don't understand modern muzzle loaders.

You are correct. I readily admit to having no experience with modern muzzle loaders. On the other hand, I have experienced a lot of persons with no experience shooting deer with a .223 telling how it can't be done or how unethical it is. We have worn out this debate, time to move on. Just as an aside, IMO the original intention for having a muzzle loader season vanished years ago. Why just not open up to rifles? :-\

 

[XTR]

You obviously don't understand modern muzzle loaders.

... IMO the original intention for having a muzzle loader season vanished years ago. Why just not open up to rifles? :-\

Number of hunters in the woods, number of deer killed, it's game management. Fewer hunters who get out for bow and primitive seasons when they cull the does, and to give folks an opportunity and a reason to get out with something else.

Some states like MS have actually started allowing BPCR type single shot rifles. I think the rule is as long as the cartridge is over 35 cal and was in existence before some date in the early 1900s it can be used in primitive season. I wish TN would go to that I'd hunt with both.



There was never anything to win, if it's legal in your state you can use it. You certainly haven't convinced me that it's a good idea to shoot a varmint rifle at deer sized game.

 

[Lazydays]

I remember well any number of arguments in the 80's in my LGS here in S.C. about wether a Ruger Mini 14 was appropriate for a deer rifle. The individuals initiating the arguments in favor of that choice weren't hand loaders and back then there were no factory loads that in my view would be suitable for it. At that time you couldn't sell a Colt AR15 for cost. It was well known at that time the preferred rifle of poachers was .22LR. I heard that as a justification of the .223's superiority to a poacher's tool.
Yes, a .223 with the right load and marksman is capable of taking a white tail "in the forest". I'm still glad however I lost a few gun sales back then by insisting that a Mini 14 wasn't appropriate for deer hunting.

remember deer get bigger the further north you go.
gary

 

[TC260]

Some states like MS have actually started allowing BPCR type single shot rifles. I think the rule is as long as the cartridge is over 35 cal and was in existence before some date in the early 1900s it can be used in primitive season.

They've gone further than that now. In LA and MS it's just 35 cal or larger in any single shot rifle with an exposed hammer. It's catapulted the 35 Whelen into one of the most popular deer rounds down here.

Purists don't like the changes but boatloads of hunters are now just using their single shots all year. So in a weird way, we've lost the true primitive weapons season but gun season has become more primitive.

 

[BigDMT]

Surprised I haven't heard anyone pipe and say "use the good ol' thurty ott six" like they do on all the other sites where there are thousands of threads containing this same exact endless argument... :

 

[Coleridge]

You obviously don't understand modern muzzle loaders.

Not sure if this was for me, but since I was in the quotes... Yes, I do understand modern muzzle loaders. I have a pretty nice one & kill a bunch of deer with it. That's usually when I kill my "big" deer (we have a 2 wks of mzld & usually hits the Rut).

In fact I've killed way more deer with my muzzle loader than my center fires. Primitive season in TN is open doe season and in the unit I hunt in I can take 4 deer in primitive. Don't dismiss modern muzzle loaders.

That statement speaks volumes... We have "doe season" all season (Sept-Jan). We also have UNLIMITED doe tags. It's not uncommon for guys to kill 20+ deer a year in my parts. We shoot a LOT of deer with a LOT of different stuff. The 223 does just fine. Those that have done it know what I'm talking about. Those that "think" it's too small; don't.

I guess I can see were some guys are coming from... If I was only able to kill one deer a year & logged MANY hours to do it. I doubt I'd carry a 223 that much (you don't want to pass up "that" one shot you worked so hard for because of bad angle). However, if your just "deer hunting" & can wait, take, & make good shots (the same thing you have to do with a bow); the 223 won't leave you wanting more.

 

[XTR]

Surprised I haven't heard anyone pipe and say "use the good ol' thurty ott six" like they do on all the other sites where there are thousands of threads containing this same exact endless argument... :

you know; I don't own an '06, and from time to time the temptation beckons me (I will get an Garand one day) I do like the round. If it was what I had I'd surely use it, and it is probably one of the best all around hunting rounds in the world, but east of the Mississippi there are few sites and less game that warrant anything bigger than a 308. (there were what, 4 elk tags in TN last yr) I have a 7mmRM that hasn't been in the woods since the early 90s and I've not fired in close to a decade, and that was "just because" one day at the range. It's not even scoped these days. My next caliber in a hunting rifle will probably be a custom Highwall or Sharps in 30-40 Krag and I shoot my 45-70s for the fun of using a cartridge that is over 130 yrs old, was the first adopted by the US Army, and the oldest still in production.

There are a whole lot of rounds that will work on medium sized game, but for white tails, hogs and bears, which are about the only things in the east that warrant a center fire, I just don't see the need for a long action or a large case. (that doesn't change the fact that I think a 223 is too small) Any of the calibers based on the 308 will get the job done for less with less recoil in a short action. Now, if I ever get to the point in the season where I have taken deer with all my other rifles and I still have more tags I may break out the 7mmRM just for practice.

 

[XTR]

In fact I've killed way more deer with my muzzle loader than my center fires. Primitive season in TN is open doe season and in the unit I hunt in I can take 4 deer in primitive. Don't dismiss modern muzzle loaders.

That statement speaks volumes... We have "doe season" all season (Sept-Jan). We also have UNLIMITED doe tags. It's not uncommon for guys to kill 20+ deer a year in my parts. We shoot a LOT of deer with a LOT of different stuff. The 223 does just fine. Those that have done it know what I'm talking about. Those that "think" it's too small; don't.

I guess I can see were some guys are coming from... If I was only able to kill one deer a year & logged MANY hours to do it. I doubt I'd carry a 223 that much (you don't want to pass up "that" one shot you worked so hard for because of bad angle). However, if your just "deer hunting" & can wait, take, & make good shots (the same thing you have to do with a bow); the 223 won't leave you wanting more.

Has nothing to do with how many you shoot; Where I hunt I can shoot 13 w/o hunting the management area hunts, and I don't care if I'm hunting in Unit L in TN where you can shoot 3 or 4 a day all season; I think a 223 is undergunned for anything bigger than a coyote. I also don't take head shots. I've taken the second shot on one that someone shot the jaw off of, I'll never be that guy.

I shoot thousands of rounds a yr in long range competitions so I also know how many variables can cause a bullet not to hit exactly where you want it to. I've put down a lot of first sighters in the 10 and X rings, but I've tossed a few in the 6 and more in the 8 and 9. I've never had to take a second shot on an animal. They are my ethics, you don't have to abide by them.

 

[Coleridge]

Has nothing to do with how many you shoot; Where I hunt I can shoot 13 w/o hunting the management area hunts, and I don't care if I'm hunting in Unit L in TN where you can shoot 3 or 4 a day all season; I think a 223 is undergunned for anything bigger than a coyote. I also don't take head shots. I've taken the second shot on one that someone shot the jaw off of, I'll never be that guy.

I shoot thousands of rounds a yr in long range competitions so I also know how many variables can cause a bullet not to hit exactly where you want it to. I've put down a lot of first sighters in the 10 and X rings, but I've tossed a few in the 6 and more in the 8 and 9. I've never had to take a second shot on an animal. They are my ethics, you don't have to abide by them.

How many critters "bigger than a coyote" have you shot with a 223? Just wondering what real world experience sways your decision or if your just "thinking". I only talked about "how many you shoot" to reference actual experience.

You can miss the mark with any bullet but deer lungs ar MUCH bigger than 10 rings.

There is no need for head or neck shots with 223. Shoot them were you would with bow & deer is dead.

 

[mikeinct]

Under "Ideal" conditions just about everything has been used to kill deer...Up in the north country woods I'd use whatever I had at the ready..One provision..The bullet from any cartridge must be up to the job at hand. I started my deer hunting with a bow...In Ct we had to use Bows Or slugs from shotguns..This was many years ago..I got into muzzle loaders before they let us use real bullets in them...But if I had seen the one bad shot I had ever made on a deer..I would have had a barrel tailor made to maximize the efficiency of round balls...Those old thompson centers 50 cals. were made to not shoot bullets or balls to the best advantage.When I put enough powder in to get real thump the groups would open up to 6 or 8 inches at 50yds..I chose to go with a slower more accurate load..Bad Plan, I found that deer two days later..The ball was just one inch from my aim point..About 3 inches into the deer...From then until now I have used a 257 roberts w 100 grain spire point, A 270 w 130 grain soft points..Once I neck shot a big doe using 110 grain varmint bullet from the same 270 rifle..I goofed & had brought the wrong ammo w me...The old 30-30 with whatever factory soft points I had before I started reloading...Last fall my buddy used my 35 whelan to neck shoot a nice doe..Oh I shot one once with a 20 Ga slug...I'm not the deer killing machine some of you guys are..But I know the bullet is crucial to getting the job done...If the 223 is legal just be sure you have a bullet in there that is up to the task..Using varmint bullets on medium size game could be a quick painless death or a horrible slow tracking job..Depends on the shooter & the shot...A good hunter knows the limits of his ability & his equipment...mike in ct

 

[onelastshot]

One of the quickest ways to start an argument is to raise this age old question; " is this caliber right for deer?", and/or, which is the best cartridge?. One thing most shooters and hunters agree on is that you can never have enough different rifles and different calibers. I love to find an excuse to purchase another.

One the best responses I've ever heard to this question is, shoot whatever you shoot best. Is a 233 adequate? yes. Is it the best choice? probably not unless, recoil is a real issue for you and with larger calibers you find yourself flinching or jerking the trigger. What most hunters do agree on is accuracy is the most important factor. I've used 223's, 6mm's, 7mm's and even a 300 Weatherby.

After accuracy, there are 3 very important factors; velocity, bullet weight and, bullet construction. Increase velocity or bullet weight and in most cases you get a larger wound channel and deeper penetration. I said in most cases because proper bullet construction is essential. A 56 grain 223 can create a bigger wound channel than a larger and heavier bullet if the larger bullet fails to expand while the 223 expands properly. A couple seasons ago I shot a deer with a 6mmAI using hand loads, a Berger VLD at 3500 plus feet per second velocity. He collapsed where he was standing. While the bullet didn't exit, the internal damage was incredible, with everything in the chest cavity destroyed.

My philosophy, find the rifle that fits me best, a cartridge I shoot well and, make certain the cartridge chosen has a bullet designed for hunting specifically, deer sized game and, practice often.

 

[timeout]

One of the quickest ways to start an argument is to raise this age old question; " is this caliber right for deer?", and/or, which is the best cartridge?. One thing most shooters and hunters agree on is that you can never have enough different rifles and different calibers. I love to find an excuse to purchase another.

One the best responses I've ever heard to this question is, shoot whatever you shoot best. Is a 233 adequate? yes. Is it the best choice? probably not unless, recoil is a real issue for you and with larger calibers you find yourself flinching or jerking the trigger. What most hunters do agree on is accuracy is the most important factor. I've used 223's, 6mm's, 7mm's and even a 300 Weatherby.

After accuracy, there are 3 very important factors; velocity, bullet weight and, bullet construction. Increase velocity or bullet weight and in most cases you get a larger wound channel and deeper penetration. I said in most cases because proper bullet construction is essential. A 56 grain 223 can create a bigger wound channel than a larger and heavier bullet if the larger bullet fails to expand while the 223 expands properly. A couple seasons ago I shot a deer with a 6mmAI using hand loads, a Berger VLD at 3500 plus feet per second velocity. He collapsed where he was standing. While the bullet didn't exit, the internal damage was incredible, with everything in the chest cavity destroyed.

My philosophy, find the rifle that fits me best, a cartridge I shoot well and, make certain the cartridge chosen has a bullet designed for hunting specifically, deer sized game and, practice often.

I could not agree more. One thing that stands out in my mind happened 40 years ago. A friend had purchased a .243 caliber rifle. He filled a metal one gallon antifreeze can with water and sat it on a fence post. I don't remember the exact yardage. My friend then fired a round from the .243 into the can. That can was blown to smitherines. We then filled another exact same can and set it on the same post. I fired the woodsman's favorite, a 30-30 lever action, into the can. That shot produced one nice, neat, round hole through the can. I could not wait to buy a .243. Being a young, poor working class man, with a family to feed, it was awhile until I purchased a .243 win. in the model 788 Remington. Having shot alot of deer with many guns from muzzle loader to a 25-06, I believe that velocity is a key factor. Along with velocity there must be penetration and controlled expansion. The .223 has produced many clean kills, with the only cripple for me being a shot that did not correctly hit the mark. We have worn this out, so this is my last post on this subject!

 

[ELR LVR]

I have had good success hunting bucks in the VT forests.

This was hard hunting. The hunter success rate was less than 10%. The requirement was that a legal deer have at least one 3" spike.

I would take any safe shot I could get at a deer. My choice of rifle was and is the 99 Savage in .358 Winchester. All loads were handloads with the 200 Winchester Silvertip and when that was discontinued the Speer 180 gr.

I practiced at running deer shoots and could hit running deer when necessary.

I would not use a 223 for this hunting? It's just not powerful enough. i would have to pass up some shots.

Would you use a 223 for such hunting?

I bring this up because in another forum someone said the 223 was good for deer and that anyone saying it was not was commenting on their own marksmanship!

I use to use a 243 with 70 grn bullets for close shots on deer
.223 now has bullets up to 90 grns
So yeah, it can be done.
Shot placement is key
I knew a guy who used to poach ELK back east, with a 22LR, using head shots
( a friend of mines dad who was a big Douche but his experience is relevent there
He once had 3 Elk in the back of the horse trailer and got pulled over driving drunk
He was more afraid of getting caught with the Elk than drunk driving, somehow the cop let him go and didn't check the horse trailer because he was almost home lol, the old days I guess when there used to be those big ash trays in Hospitals and it was almost common to drive with a Coors between your legs as long as you were just sipping it.)
-------------------
I would not recommend something like an AR using 55 FMJ's however since they are not designed to expand

 

[GotRDid]

From May 7, 2013?!?

 

[Hipshoot]

Living and hunting in the Northeast for many years I would think a Rem, M760 pump in .35 Rem, would be ideal. If wanting more range have it rechambered to .358 Win. or .35 Whelen.

Hunting in the NE many times IDEAL bullet placement is impossible. When I hunted, I hunted with a custom Mauser in .358Win. (sitting) and a Marlin M336 in .35 Rem. (still hunting or on a drive).

Hip