Bullet run out how much matters?

[Uncle Ed]

The best course of action is to not use any expander ball in a sizing die at all. Forster hasnt figured out any magic there- it still plows an expander back thru a case. They just put it in a different place to make you think it must work better (but it doesnt)

I do not live in fear of the dies expander and after testing seven different .223 dies the Forster full length dies produced the least neck runout.

And Redding put a expander in their bushing dies for a reason.

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Bushing Selection
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/140-bushing-selection
If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter.

Below I installed a Forster expander and spindle assembly on my Redding non-bushing full length die. And it greatly reduced the amount of neck runout vs the Redding expander. The reason for this is the Forster expander enters the case neck when the case neck is held and centered in the neck of the die. Meaning the Forster expander does not pull the case neck off center like other dies.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I do not live in fear of the dies expander and after testing seven different .223 dies the Forster full length dies produced the least neck runout.

And Redding put a expander in their bushing dies for a reason.

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Bushing Selection
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/140-bushing-selection
If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter.

Below I installed a Forster expander and spindle assembly on my Redding non-bushing full length die. And it greatly reduced the amount of neck runout vs the Redding expander. The reason for this is the Forster expander enters the case neck when the case neck is held and centered in the neck of the die. Meaning the Forster expander does not pull the case neck off center like other dies.

What works for some may not work for others. I dont know of a single top level benchrest competitor that uses an expander ball, and dont know any that use forster dies. I do know a few shooters that have used redding dies for a little while but no expander ball was ever used. Itll be fine for hunting rounds.

 

[Nature Boy]

Admittedly unscientific sample size. 10 shots each, .308, 100 yards with a stock FN SPR

I continue to “feel” that run out is important, and the less there is the better. Of course, it could just be more reloading witchcraft.

 

[varget204]

Simple question I ask?
How much bullet run out does it take to make a difference? I am not interested in theory and the obvious answer only in answers that have been tested and proven.

I load and shoot thousands of rounds,i try to keep TIR under .0015 or less,.003-.005 are what a lot of factory rounds are.Almost all my loaded shells are .001 or less,when i get them that are .002 or more i shoot them as spoter or warm up rounds.If your trying to shoot Bug Holes at 100, or small groups at 1000 yards,would recommend you make them as concentric as possible.I have shot a Few groups in the High .1's and low .2's with rounds that were off .003-.004 a couple of times;but ALL the groups i have shot in the .1's and less,were with concentric rounds.Ask any Benchrest or Long Range Precision Shooter,they will all tell you,make them as cocentric as you can.

 

[Intheshop]

At the very high risk of sounding "Guffey", will just say, I believe a lot of guys are "leaving right much on the table" WRT assembling deadnuts straight ammo..... in the seating op.

And,hate to say this as well,but annealing plays a role in seating just like sizing. Both ops are relying on the brass "getting in line". The same way that sizing has to be controlled diameter wise( skipping the tension jokes?) ,your seating is as well. If there's any room/slop in how that case neck is being held..... along with the very short trip the bullet makes on "approach".... combined with anything other than a perfectly tuned bullet stem.... well,you feeling lucky today?

If you're happy with a cpl .001's of runout, carry on. Just sayin don't stop working on seating discipline.... the inline seaters are dang close but,even they can be better.

 

[Ccrider]

How much runout is induced by the chamber?

 

[dkhunt14]

How much runout is induced by the chamber?

I would say none. If anything and placed in or near the lands, it would straighten it. Matt

 

[dcali]

How much runout is induced by the chamber?

It should be unmeasurable. If it’s not, your chamber is jacked up.

 

[Ccrider]

How much runout is induced by the chamber?

I ask this because I have found that after firing, (and maybe before) some cases are straighter than others i.e. have less runout. I am not sure why. The runout for those cases stay lower.

Are you Gus saying that rhnout can be reduced by loading procedure.

Also, based on what I am seeing, .0005, .001 and .002 runout loads are landing in the same place on the target.

 

[cw308]

That's a big difference at 100 yards from .003 to just about perfect . One of my best groups were when I didn't even know what runout was and Im sure it wasn't .0005 dead center on the bull one hole . How was your rifle set up for the test . Was that the only difference , runout .

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

Well Guys,..I did NOT mean, to start an "online Battle" over this, subject as, I do NOT have, a $7,000 "Target" Rifle !
I have an old, T3 Tikka .243 Win., in SS lite, that is, pretty accurate, already. I do see "both sides" between, Uncle Ed and Dusty S. and BOTH are probably, RIGHT,.. for me and my informal,.. Target, Coyote, Deer Huntin' type of, shootin'! Thanks Guys ! This subject, does get pretty DEEP if, you HAVE a serious,.. Target Rifle as others, have explained !
But, .002 Max. TIR, "gets it done" for ME and for MOST of, the "informal Target" shooters & Hunters! I DO want, as close, to "Perfection" as my, Sub $1,200 Rifles with, 4.4-14X Scopes, can produce, tho ! I will start, by "TOSSING' the Expander Ball and using my existing RCBS Die as, it "Mirrors" my Chamber, really well. Every load (even the "Bad", ones !) shoot, Sub MOA but as, I am a bit spoiled NOW and HAVE shot, several Sub 1/2 MOA groups with, the Tikka .243 ! I think that, this is, what, I "need", NOW,.. LOL ! IF, I cannot get, the .002 or less, TIR out of MY current Dies, repeatably,.. I might "spring" for the Forster FL Die/ Match Seater set for, $82.00 or so, as they ARE, highly Rated, Dies, UNLESS, you have, a $4,000 - $7,000+ Target Rifle !
THANKS AGAIN, Guys as, I learned a bit more from, this "Thread" and hope others have, too !

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

I also, want to THANK, K-22,.. as his recommendation of, 42 grains of IMR 4350 with, the 80 gr Sierra Blitz, #1515, "shoots" AWESOME in My Tikka !
I found great groups from, 42.1 to 42.7 grains of this, "Pixie Dust",.. easily, SUB, 1/2 MOA at, 100 ! Thanks, K-22 !

 

[oley55]

YUP and I'm piszzed oft about it, BUT am getting, .280 ( 3 shots ) to sub, 1/2 MOA ( 5 shots ) groups from my Tikka T3 .243 win. loaded with, the 80 grain, Sierra #1515 Blitz's @ 100. I believe the problem lies with the Expanding Ball pulling thru the "Neck" after FL sizing, I lube the necks lightly and have polished the Exp Ball. I have also, polished/ lapped, the Seat Plug to "fit" my Bullets, so I don't think it's a Bullet seating issue. NOT all the loads are that, "BAD" but more than, I'd like !!

Idaho, any chance at some time in the past, you broke the depriming pin? If so, there is a good chance the expanding ball stem was bent at the point where the ball screws onto the stem. So now the ball is cocked and inducing runout. Not an expert here, but been there and done that. So just a thought.

A real good way to see if the problem is the expander ball is to size a couple cases with the ball/stem removed. With expander removed, my RCBS FL dies easily produces cases with less than .002" runout. That's not to say I don't find some with more, but those seem to be from necks that are excessively thin on one side. So I set them aside thinking I may eventually want to turn my necks further down and they may become usable. I also quarter turn the brass and always resize, but not with the expander ball.

 

[mrjdasr]

Would a FL Redding Sizer Die, do the "trick" for descent, Neck "runout" as, thier expander ball sits in a different position than, all the rest of,. the die manufacturers? Anyone using the Redding FL Die the one,.. w/o the Bushings?

redding full length bushing dies are a little pricey
forster makes a very good full length non bushing die and they will hone the neck diameter to your specs so you don't need the neck expander I have one for a 6.5x47lapua, I works mighty fine
Whidden dies are also very good

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

Idaho, any chance at some time in the past, you broke the depriming pin? If so, there is a good chance the expanding ball stem was bent at the point where the ball screws onto the stem. So now the ball is cocked and inducing runout. Not an expert here, but been there and done that. So just a thought.

A real good way to see if the problem is the expander ball is to size a couple cases with the ball/stem removed. With expander removed, my RCBS FL dies easily produces cases with less than .002" runout. That's not to say I don't find some with more, but those seem to be from necks that are excessively thin on one side. So I set them aside thinking I may eventually want to turn my necks further down and they may become usable. I also quarter turn the brass and always resize, but not with the expander ball.

Yes, i was real careful setting, the expander / spindle straight when starting, to load. THEN, i later removed it, that's when, the ugly "run-out" appeared as I did NOT realign expander, carefully. No, I didn't break/ bend, the pin. I took the Exp Ball, OUT of the sizer and now have, less than, .002 TIR "run-out" with, about .005/ .006 Neck Tension. I will try these New loads, as soon as the WIND dies down, a bit! Cold and Windy here !!

 

[Damon555]

.....this isn't to prove anything one way or another but I have experienced some odd things when it comes to bullet run out. Mainly while shooting AR15 and the like.

There have been several occasions when a round becomes jammed while being chambered in one of my AR15's. It'll chew the bullet up good but it's still ok to fire......I'll fire my next group and include that buggered up round in the group just to see what'll happen. Of the handful of times that I've had that happen the buggered up round has shot well within the group....(whether the group was good or not)....if I shot a 3/4" group the buggered up bullet never spoiled the group....Common sense would tell me that the darn bullet with .05" (ha) of run out would be well off the mark......Doesn't make any sense to my simple mind.

 

[Bart B.]

With due respect to all owners of cartridge runout measuring tools, I'm convinced a given cartridge will have different numbers across all makes, models and their set ups.

Therefore, a.001" reading on tool/setup A can show .003" reading on tool/setup B. It might read zero on a third.

 

[One Shot One Thrill]

I used to be obsessed with runout. I used to measure it on every round I loaded.

View attachment 1080493

Then one day I decided to build a 260AI, you can read my experience with fire forming and runout issues in this old post: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/my-new-260-ai-build.3909184/


The bottom line is that I consider low runout a byproduct of good brass prep and reloading process. Runout is not a goal. However many people inadvertently cause rounout by manipulating their brass necks by trimming or chamfering after resizing the brass. Once the brass is resized you want to protect your necks.

Some of us know that, of the 3 components of the Holy Trinity of precision ammo are 1. Powder, 2. Seating depth and 3. Neck tension. Runout is not mentioned there.

Regards,

Joe

P.S. The best place for an expander ball is in the box that it came in, just in case you decide to sell the die somewhere down the road.

Very Well said!!

 

[JFrank]

I used to do a lot of salt water fishing, and one day I walked into a new tackle shop while looking around I mentioned wow" you got a lot of lures.
The owner replied it wasn't for the fish there for the fisherman.
Fish don't care.

 

[Bart B.]

Too many guys using imprecise/cheap tools.

And none use the case shoulder mid point as the front rest like it is in the chamber when fired. I'm amazed that nobody makes runout thing-of-a-bobs that does that. Maybe they're ignorant of what really happens.

Regarding bullet ogive uniformity, people who have used 50X optical comparitors comparing shapes across a production lot see excellent uniformity. Except one lot of Lapua 30 caliber 185 grain FMJRB Match bullets that had 4 different ogive shapes. Proof they came from 4 different pointing dies.