Bullet Ogive Bearing Surface Consistency

[BigDMT]

I have been purchasing and measuring various bullets to use in my 6.5X47 Lapua 1000 yd competition rifle.

I bought a box of Hornady's new 123gr A-Max bullets and Hornady's new 140gr Hollow Point Boat Tail "Match" bullets.
Also bought a box of Berger 130gr VLD's.

Figured maybe one of Hornady's "supposedly Match Grade" bullets could compare to the consistency of Berger's legendary J4 precision jacket. I actually hoped they would. So I measured 100 bullets of each. Nope, Hornady A-Max nor HPBT Match was even close to the consistency of Berger VLD's.

All bullets are piled up with their ogive bearing surface measurements listed above them. Sorted them all by .001"



First up...Hornady's new 140gr HPBT Match Bullets

Next up...Hornady's new 123gr A-Max bullets. Better, but not good enough

And Finally...Berger 130gr VLD Target bullets. All I gotta say is WOW! Even in the pile of .701"-.702" most bullets actually measured .7015". Only one bullet of the 8 in that pile actually hit .702" Simply Amazing!

Gonna have to stick with Berger if I want to get my money's worth : ) I could shoot them right out of the box. probably the most boring bullet I've ever measured cuz they're all the same! : )

When only allowing .003" tolerance in ogive consistency, I lost 32 Hornady 140gr HPBT bullets out of 100!!! That's ridiculous! Only 68% with a generous tolerance!

With the same tolerance for 123gr A-Max bullets, I had 10 bullets that were out of spec. Not too bad there,at 90%, but could be better with some extra QC.

Didn't even hit the .003" tolerance range with Berger VLD's. Every last one is suitable for top notch long range competition accuracy. The Berger VLD is "Truly" a Match Grade bullet.

 

[bheadboy]

Your experience is not unusual, however, the jacket being improtant, is not the primary and sol cause of the variations you find,

Absence of any foreign matter on surface of jacket/ lead wire, must be purged

The swage die for brass, uniform shape
the swage die for core, uniform shape
the core consistancey - desity alloy uniformity
the core seating die- uniform shape
the point forming die- unifor shape
the lube quality - heat/pressure sensitivity
the lube consistance -over all coverage, uniform notto much or too little


the uniformity of lub on all surfaces is very important

The care and skill of the manufacture in achieving these determine the quality of the finished product.

Bob

 

[artbosco]

And, what have you found with custom made bullets vice mass produced bullets?

 

[queen_stick]

did you measure base-to-ogive, or use two inserts (assuming you used hornady tool, or the like) to measure bearing surface only?

edit: i think I know the answer to that question... after looking at the overall measurement.

 

[brian427cobra]

Question is can you shoot the difference?

 

[BigDMT]

brian427cobra,
A person might not see the differences at closer ranges (300 yds or less). Hornady's variances might even be acceptable for 600 yard NRA High Power Rifle or F-Class competition. But those inconsistencies will definitely show up in benchrest competition on a target at 1000 yards. You can separate them all to get consistent measurements, but like my results show for the Hornady 140gr HPBT bullets, you'd be paying for a box of bullets where only 68 out of 100 bullets are worth trying. I pay for a box of 100 bullets and I want to be able to use 100 bullets. Berger gives you that. The Berger's variance was actually only .0015" for 99 bullets and only one bullet varying .002". I have also had excellent consistency when measuring the Berger 140gr VLD in the past.

Also plan on trying JLK bullets if available. Maybe Norma Diamond bullets. And bought some more 139gr Lapua Scenars I have yet to measure, though I know from past experiences that Scenars are not as consistent as Berger VLDs. But definitely better than Hornady.

I was measuring from base to ogive bearing surface. I know there are many important parts of the bullet jacket that demand consistency, and I feel the base is one of them. Varying bases can affect how the powder charge propels them.
Was it the bases causing the inconsistencies? Or was it the ogives? Does it matter??? Point is from base to ogive Berger was extremely consistent which means the rest of the bullet is more than likely extremely consistent. Hornady was not.

 

[queen_stick]

I was measuring from base to ogive bearing surface. I know there are many important parts of the bullet jacket that demand consistency, and I feel the base is one of them. Varying bases can affect how the powder charge propels them.
Was it the bases causing the inconsistencies? Or was it the ogives? Does it matter??? Point is from base to ogive Berger was extremely consistent which means the rest of the bullet is more than likely extremely consistent. Hornady was not.

not trying to split hairs, just continuing the discussion...

Some people would argue that it does matter, however most agree that base-to-ogive is more important than the bearing surface. Some people sort bullets 3 times - weight, base-to-ogive, and bearing surface. That seems a little extreme in my opinion, but I haven't won a match yet either

As a side note... I have an "L" shaped attachment on the dial indicator on my comparator stand (It's a Sinlcair comparator stand) If I put the the end of the "L" on the center of the bullet's base, I get one measurement. If I simply move the comparator, so that the end of the "L" is near the edge of the bullet's base, I get a different measurement. The base of the bullet is 'dished' slightly, which is why the measurements differ. I have no idea where the appropriate measuring point would be?

 

[6BRinNZ]

brian427cobra,
Was it the bases causing the inconsistencies? Or was it the ogives? Does it matter??? Point is from base to ogive Berger was extremely consistent which means the rest of the bullet is more than likely extremely consistent. Hornady was not.

This is the reason I measure as well...IMO its about a level of confidence in what you are shooting. I measure as much as I can, again not because I can necessarily state that it makes a difference...the data simply helps me make informed decisions.

 

[brian427cobra]

I shoot a lot of Hornady Amax's, in BR I understand the level of consistency needed to be competitive and thats why I asked if you could shoot the difference, I would not choose Hornady pills for that, I sort all mine bullets by bearing surface length, and load them in groups all seated to the same Ojive length, in matches I shoot in hits are hits and misses are misses, 10 feet to 1100 yards with little time and no sighters, Amax's perform just fine this type of shooting.

 

[mikecr]

I don't think this bit of inconsistency, given the variables combined to produce it, means anything really.
That is, if all parameters were actually measured separately(not assumed), and BC calculated, the Hdy140gr might actually be the most consistent of the bunch -in BC.

So the question about shooting the difference is valid, IMO.

 

[Terry]

I tested Lapua 139 &123, Berger 130, Nosler 140, and Hornady 140.

Base to OJ, bearing surface, and weight. The Lapua, Berger & Nosler were so consistant, I put them back in the box.
The weight of the Hornady bullets varied by 1.4 grains, and the bearing surface was in three separate groups.

 

[bozo699]

BigDMT,
I myself have not found Bergers to be consistently that consistent however if you are then that's great, When sorting 107 SMK's 105 Berger VLD's and 105 Scenars, I found at least in the 1K lot of each that I bought before the start of the season the Lapua's were by far the closest in measurement and weight, so close in fact measuring was a moot point, the Sierra's measured like they have for years, two main groups with a two or three odd measurements that I use for fouling, and the Bergers with the most variation, again this was just my findings with these particular lots, however the boy's 6brx and my dasher both prefered the Sierra's over the nearly perfect Scenars or the bergers. A lot of guy's are getting really good groups and score where you shoot with Bergers but the top two shooters in that club are shooting 103 VLD Spencer bullets, however when I contacted Clay the other day they were 47,700 bullets behind right then on 103's alone so to contact him after the first of the year and maybe he would know more. Some guy's are doing better with the 108 Bergers over there, I believe the majority are shooting Bergers though. All I am saying Brandon is don't be closed minded to other bullets, let your rifle decide for you and not the calipers alone, looking forward in re-meeting you at the March shoot, wish you the best and hope your rifle performs to you liking.
Wayne.

 

[BigDMT]

Technically I measure from the "Tangent" of the bullet if we want to get specific on terms. The spot where the ogive meets the bearing surface. The same spot where rifling first contacts the jacket.

Not close minded at all Wayne. Quite the opposite actually. I have always been a fan of Berger and purchased Hornady bullets with open minded hopes that I could expand my options. Like I said, I also have Lapua Scenars and plan on trying JLK's and Norma. Thought of Nosler, but without experience using them, I don't want to purchase them in the 250 ct pack when I might not use them. I actually wish Hornady's Match bullets would have been better because they are about $10 cheaper per 100 when compared to Berger. But that price difference is for obvious reasons

Spencer indeed makes some of the best bullets, but that's not an option for me because they do not make 6.5mm bullets. Wish they did. Though they probably wouldn't be available anyhow.
Spencer is backed up so bad because they purchase their bullet jackets from Berger. They don't make their own jackets. They use the same exact J4 precision jacket and Berger is the only one who makes them, so Berger has Spencer bullets by the "you know what" : ) So when Berger is in high demand, as it is these days, Spencer's jacket orders get set on the back burner and people using Spencer bullets get left empty handed.

So a person takes the best of what's available and with a little luck , a really good rifle, and a lot of skill, tries to pull off a win : )

 

[bdale]

Don't bother with Norma they get their bullets from Berger

 

[BigDMT]

Don't bother with Norma they get their bullets from Berger

Interesting...Did not know that. I wouldn't have thought a European company making deals like that with an American company. Hmmm...Good to know.


Here's some pics to clearly show how and what I used to measure the bullets. Ironically my measuring devices are all made by Hornady! Go figure : ) LOL!

This caliper is extremely consistent. You can see in the photos that I pull my battery when not in use. I put a battery back in to measure the 130gr VLD for this picture. I grabbed a random bullet from the box, re-zeroed my caliper, and you can see that the measurement came out to exactly what almost every single Berger bullet measured during my tests, .7005"

 

[markr]

You really can buy real custom handmade target bullets for about the same price as the mass produced on several sets of dies "target bullets"...Then...you will find consistency and accuracy. I'm not saying the commercial bullets are bad either. I shoot 115 gr. 30 cal Bergers in my 30 BR and they shoot splendedly!

 

[queen_stick]

I don't think this bit of inconsistency, given the variables combined to produce it, means anything really.
That is, if all parameters were actually measured separately(not assumed), and BC calculated, the Hdy140gr might actually be the most consistent of the bunch -in BC.

So the question about shooting the difference is valid, IMO.

I've read multiple places, that Hornady Amax's have the most consistent BC vs any other bullet.... in every caliber they make them in.

I hate to say something like that without the information to back it up, but I can't find where I read it at.

 

[BigDMT]

I don't think this bit of inconsistency, given the variables combined to produce it, means anything really.
That is, if all parameters were actually measured separately(not assumed), and BC calculated, the Hdy140gr might actually be the most consistent of the bunch -in BC.

So the question about shooting the difference is valid, IMO.

Interesting point. And not trying to offend, but your statement is all an assumption. Only due to the fact that the phrase "might actually be" is needed to complete the sentence without tampering with unknown results. But you may be right! : ) Who knows? That would be an interesting, but very difficult and time consuming test.

The fact is that Hornady bullets vary in ogive shape more than they should.
Varying ogive shapes, cause variations in seating depth from the lands.
Varying seating depth causes varying pressures and accuracy.
Varying pressures cause higher SD's and ES's in velocity.
Higher SD's and ES's in velocity make groups at 1000 yards get bigger.

So you see, it's a big ball of "nothing good" (for better wording) and it all runs downhill.

I am looking for bullets to break world records at 1000 yards, not waste my time being another shooter in the crowd, so EVERY BIT OF BULLET CONSISTENCY DOES MATTER.

Though I will admit that the 123gr A-Max bullets are worth trying because it's acceptable to have 90% of the bullets being within a .003" tolerance. A person needs 10% of a box for fouling a barrel anyhow. So I'd just use the out of spec rounds. Use the bullets that are .002" or more out of spec for sighters, and the majority with the most consistent measurement for record strings.

But the 140gr Match HPBT are way to out of specs to even consider wasting my money any further. I will probably use the box I have to break in my Krieger barrel and never buy them again. I will probably contact Hornady about this issue to see if I can get the ball rolling on them improving their Quality Control on what they call a "match grade" bullet. If not for me, then at least for the sake of other shooters purchasing them.

 

[bozo699]

BigDMT,
If you bought the Hornaday's in bulk and sorted in lots like you did I think you would probably okay and seat acordenly However I don't see anybody competing in our club with them. I think you will be way better off going the route you are with the Bergers, I have a friend that shoots over at Deep creek with us that has used the Nosler custom comp bullets and said thet were very consistent in measurment and I believe that was his findings but it wasn't my findings at all. My findings have been for factory that Sierra, Lapua, and Berger bullets have been the best of the mass produced match bullets, of course this is just my opinion. By sorting the 105 a-max bullets I was able to get some really nice groups out of my sons 6brx with them out to 300 but never tested them further.
Wayne.

 

[BigDMT]

Thanks for the info Wayne. I could see the A-Max bullets being competitive from my results. Though my results of measuring only 100 bullets is not much to go by when only God knows how many Hornady produces each day. Still worth a try IMO.

Now back to further testing : )

I just measured 100 Lapua 6.5mm 139gr Scenar bullets in the same manner. The results were very impressive indeed. The first sorting was measurements from .790" to .791". I did have 4 bullets that measured .7895", but none of the bullets in that sorting group actually hit .791". All were .7905" or .790". So there was still only a .001" variance in the majority grouping of bullets.

The other grouping was .791"-.792". There were only 11 bullets in that category and NONE of them actually hit .792". All were .791"-.7915". So actually only a .0005" variance there. Confused with my numbers yet??? LOL : )

Total variance was from .7895"-.7915". Only .002" total variance! Same as the Bergers. Shoot 'em out of the box cuz they're too boring to measure : )
Of course weight sorting could change that point of view...I'll have to see what my GemPro250 scale has to say for all these bullet brands and makes when I get around to weight sorting them.

Here's the pic.