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Bronze Brushes, Carbon & False Reading?

Do (or can) bronze brushes produce false indications of carbon fouling?

Pretty much every time I use a bronze brush (5 strokes) on pretty much any of my guns with any standard cleaning fluid I've used, the next patch will come out black, which I've generally understood to be a sign that the brush was mechanically scrubbing out carbon fouling. I can't say that I've ever not had a black patch after using a bronze brush.

I'm wondering if I'm actually seeing carbon fouling coming out of the bore, or if the black junk is more associated with bronze brush wearing down with each stroke?

I'm only interested in removing carbon with this question. Copper fouling is another issue, I think.

I'm not at interested in the bronze brush vs nylon brush debate, or questions about ruining barrels with bronze brushes. I can find countless threads and posts here and elsewhere on that topic.

I don't have a bore scope and mm also not interested in the pros and cons of bore scopes at this point, as having read many different threads on that topic, I'm not convinced I can correctly interpret what I would be seeing or not. Interesting discussion but not my question here.

Thanks for any light you can shed.
 
The brushing after the first brushing [say 15 strokes], is the first patch actually black or some shade of gray?

I've found that brushing after first brushing, say 20 strokees, with a bronze brush with a good solvent, the patch will come out slightly gray. I'm not sure if this is more carbon or simply residue from the brush.

I can say that scrubbing the clean OUTSIDE of a stainless barrel with bronze wool does leave a black residue.

I strongly suggest you do get a borescope. There is a learning curve, but once you get familiar with what you're looking at, it helps a lot in shaping your cleaning.

ETA: Clarified in the first two paragraphs that the gray patches come out in the second brushing.
 
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You have the intelligence to write a post expressing your views, so I can assure you, you have the ability to learn what you will see with a bore scope. We can help you with that if you are not sure.

What is very important, is that rifle bores are different, and take different methods and materials to clean properly depending on a host of factors.

A "one method fits all" approach may work, or, it may not. Only you can look inside the barrel and see.

Jim
 
I can also brush my 6mm and get a black patch every time. I don't think it's a "false reading" i think that it has continuous thin carbon to scratch out. I also use a brush up in two matches. Brushes cannot last forever. If it doesn't have resistance it's worn out. If you can pull it backwards without resistance it's worn out.

5 strokes ! That's a joke to me. One good shooter said a stroke for every round shot. I go to town on em.

I go by how the patch feels from the first ones until the last one. I'm not looking for a "new" worn barrel.

Bore scope are too cheap not to have one, imo. Shows if you suck at cleaning or not.
 
Do (or can) bronze brushes produce false indications of carbon fouling?

Pretty much every time I use a bronze brush (5 strokes) on pretty much any of my guns with any standard cleaning fluid I've used, the next patch will come out black, which I've generally understood to be a sign that the brush was mechanically scrubbing out carbon fouling. I can't say that I've ever not had a black patch after using a bronze brush.

I'm wondering if I'm actually seeing carbon fouling coming out of the bore, or if the black junk is more associated with bronze brush wearing down with each stroke?

I'm only interested in removing carbon with this question. Copper fouling is another issue, I think.

I'm not at interested in the bronze brush vs nylon brush debate, or questions about ruining barrels with bronze brushes. I can find countless threads and posts here and elsewhere on that topic.

I don't have a bore scope and mm also not interested in the pros and cons of bore scopes at this point, as having read many different threads on that topic, I'm not convinced I can correctly interpret what I would be seeing or not. Interesting discussion but not my question here.

Thanks for any light you can shed.
I have had the same experience recently with an Anschutz CM RF barrel, but I do have two borescopes and can see no carbon, the bore it truly bright and shiny. I am convinced the black is from the brush (Tipton bronze - 20 strokes) or how the brush interacts with the barrel steel. I have had similar issues with SS CF barrels to, but more dark grey than black.
 
I just went thru barrel cleaning 101 again. Seems I can't pass this class. I use bronze brushes. A new bronze brush stroked down a "clean" bore will result in a gray patch when run thru. A black patch or black streaks on a patch indicates more carbon to me. My latest procedure, I use Montana extreme, JB's bore paste and Free All. After alot of stroking with bronze brushes and patches, I see all bare metal in the bore. No carbon streaks, no copper.

PopCharlie
 
I don't believe you can get a false positive with a bronze brush relative to carbon. I believe using a bronze brush is a very effective way to remove carbon if used with an effective carbon removal solvent. My favorite is Bore Tech C4. This stuff really works. I don't need to overdo it with the brush either, about 10 strokes works in my barrels.

Three patches saturated with C4, about 10 strokes with a saturated no harm Dewey bronze brush followed by 3 more patches of saturated C4 then let stand for about 15 minutes then dry patch. This works for me judging from the performance results on target.

Most riflemen know not to use bronze brushes, copper jags, or copper cleaning rod ferrules with copper solvents since the solvent can attack the copper in these items and false positive are likely. Besides, you don't need a bronze brush to remove copper, most high-quality copper solvents do that chemically.
 
I just went thru barrel cleaning 101 again. Seems I can't pass this class. I use bronze brushes. A new bronze brush stroked down a "clean" bore will result in a gray patch when run thru. A black patch or black streaks on a patch indicates more carbon to me. My latest procedure, I use Montana extreme, JB's bore paste and Free All. After alot of stroking with bronze brushes and patches, I see all bare metal in the bore. No carbon streaks, no copper.

PopCharlie
Ya, I get that, but the patches after using JB come out totally "BLACK", don't they? Mine do, Iosso too.
I don't believe you can get a false positive with a bronze brush relative to carbon. I believe using a bronze brush is a very effective way to remove carbon if used with an effective carbon removal solvent. My favorite is Bore Tech C4. This stuff really works. I don't need to overdo it with the brush either, about 10 strokes works in my barrels.

Three patches saturated with C4, about 10 strokes with a saturated no harm Dewey bronze brush followed by 3 more patches of saturated C4 then let stand for about 15 minutes then dry patch. This works for me judging from the performance results on target.

Most riflemen know not to use bronze brushes, copper jags, or copper cleaning rod ferrules with copper solvents since the solvent can attack the copper in these items and false positive are likely. Besides, you don't need a bronze brush to remove copper, most high-quality copper solvents do that chemically.
I get that and agree. I have been using BT Eliminator for a long time. I am not talking about the "green" staining, I am concerned about the "black". Like I said, I don't see it in the bore scope, but yet after 20 brush strokes it' still there???
 
Ya, I get that, but the patches after using JB come out totally "BLACK", don't they? Mine do, Iosso too.

I get that and agree. I have been using BT Eliminator for a long time. I am not talking about the "green" staining, I am concerned about the "black". Like I said, I don't see it in the bore scope, but yet after 20 brush strokes it' still there???
Yes patches do come out black after JBs. But I keep patching until they come out clean. Then I hit it with Free All and a bronze brush, usually 30 strokes. Patches come out ⚫. I keep patching until they're clean.

PopCharlie
 
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Carbon. Your cleaning regimen needs work, apparently. This is why I use a brush but it's a controversial subject so get ready for it.
 
So, the patch comes out black...but is it carbon? Based on comments from this forum, I recently purchased some Free All penetrating oil, which has been touted occasionally as an effective carbon remover.

For starters, this is my standard cleaning regimen:

1) Wet patches of Bore Tech C4 until very little carbon is coming out, 3 strokes w bronze brush, patches of C4 until very little carbon is coming out, 3 more strokes w bronze brush, more patches of C4 until no carbon is visible, then three dry patches.

Note: FWIW - even this rather extensive treatment using C4 leaves a substantial amount of carbon in the throat and first few inches of barrel as observed using a borescope.


2) 2-3 wet patches of Cu+2 Copper remover>>>~15-20 min, repeat 3-4X, then three strokes w bronze brush, 2-3 more wet patches of Cu+2 until no more blue color can be observed, then thee dry patches. I follow this with a couple patches lightly wetted with plain tap water to help remove any remaining Cu+2 residue, which is fairly "sticky" even after the dry patches, followed by three more dry patches.

Note: Readily observable amounts of carbon will be removed by the Cu+2 patches, noticeably the first two, and again following the bronze brush treatment. This is carbon that was not removed by the C4 treatment.


3) Two patches of Kroil Penetrating Oil>>>left overnight at this usually, then a couple more Kroil patches in the morning, three strokes with a bronze brush, a couple more patches of Kroil, then three dry patches.


4) I finish with one patch of Hoppes Gun Oil, followed by three dry patches.



Free All Treatment

Note: the following image showing patches following treatment using Kroil overnight/bronze brush strokes, then by Free All/bronze brush strokes was done after the above standard cleaning regimen, on a barrel that only had a couple hundred rounds through it, and only had the very teeny tiniest amount of hard carbon residue visible via borescope in the throat region.

First, neither Kroil nor Free All by themselves removed much if any carbon, as nothing was visible on patches #1 and #3. However, as shown in the attached image, treatment with a bronze brush and Free All removed a significant amount of dark gray material that LOOKS like carbon (patches #5-7). I should point out that when observed up close, the dark gray Free All/bronze brush patches don't look exactly the same as carbon removed during the first cleaning step with C4. It's difficult to explain how they look different; the difference is subtle. Nonetheless, they do look a little different. I'll come back to this later.

As I had observed in the past, O/N treatment with Kroil followed by the bronze brush seemed to remove only a very small amount of carbon that was visual on patch #2. Noticeably, successive treatment with Free All and the bronze brush removed what appeared to be a lot more carbon, which is clearly visible on the patches.

My initial takeaway from this experiment was that my standard cleaning process was leaving a LOT more carbon in the barrel than I had previously believed. However, I was a little suspicious for the following reasons: 1st - the fairly extensive standard cleaning process prior to using Free All, 2nd - the relatively low round on the barrel, 3rd - the fact that the dark gray color coming out on the patches did not seem to lessen in intensity even after four successive treatments.

My thought at this point was that maybe the bronze brush was leaving a small amount of bronze material following contact with the inside of the bore, and that this material was somehow interacting with some component(s) of the Free All to generate the grayish color. Recall I mentioned previously that the dark gray Free All/bronze brush patches looked subtly different that typical heavy carbon fouling in the preliminary C4 Carbon Remover cleaning phase. At some point, most of us have observed what is commonly referred to as a streak test where different materials leave a colored streak when rubbed across a ceramic tile. I wondered if something similar to this might be going on with the brush and the Free All, rather than admitting to myself there might really be that much carbon left in a relatively new barrel following what I consider fairly extensive cleaning, without resorting to the use of abrasives.

I thought about this for a bit, then decided to go one step further repeat the Free All/bronze brush treatment on a barrel blank that had never been fired. Surprisingly, the patches came out pure white, with no dark gray color at all, even after two successive treatments (not shown).

I am still not certain that the dark gray coming out with Free All/bronze brush treatment is actually carbon. As I mentioned, there is just something about the appearance that doesn't seem quite right. Nonetheless, if it actually IS carbon, then it is clear evidence that common cleaning treatments leave a pretty substantial amount of carbon in the barrel, short of resorting to using abrasives. If the material on the patches is NOT carbon, I am at a loss for another experiment that would clearly demonstrate this. Frankly, it doesn't matter that much to me anyhow, but I hate to leave an experiment uncompleted. I continue to use the Free All/bronze brush treatment following my standard cleaning procedure, maybe every 2nd or 3rd time I fire a particular rifle. I figure that even the material coming out on the patches is not carbon, I doubt the Free All/bronze brush treatment is doing anything to harm the barrel.

The general take home message(s) from this should be that first, many of us using common barrel cleaners (i.e. not abrasives) may not be getting our barrels as clean as we would like to think. Secondly, just because something doesn't show up on patches during a particular cleaning step doesn't necessarily mean the barrel is "clean" and it has all been removed. A cleaning step may only remove a certain amount of material after which no more comes out, even though there is still some remaining in the bore, until a different cleaning step/material is used. Finally, interpreting the meaning of dark colored material that comes out on patches may not be quite as simple as it seems. Of course, none of us wants to see dark gray patches come out after we think we have the barrel relatively clean. But any dark material, carbon or otherwise, often shows up like a spotlight in the dark when it comes out on a pure white patch. Regardless, each of us has to decide for themselves how clean their barrels need to be, and to what lengths we will go in the cleaning process. I am not advocating for or against any particular cleaning process in this post, merely sharing a few observations I have made.
 

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All, thank you for your input and suggestions.

Follow up question...

Can anybody report that they can give 5-10 passes of a bronze brush through their barrel and have the next patch through come out clean?
 
All, thank you for your input and suggestions.

Follow up question...

Can anybody report that they can give 5-10 passes of a bronze brush through their barrel and have the next patch through come out clean?
I've got a couple completely new barrels. I'll do the test on one of them.
 
I just went thru barrel cleaning 101 again. Seems I can't pass this class. I use bronze brushes. A new bronze brush stroked down a "clean" bore will result in a gray patch when run thru. A black patch or black streaks on a patch indicates more carbon to me. My latest procedure, I use Montana extreme, JB's bore paste and Free All. After alot of stroking with bronze brushes and patches, I see all bare metal in the bore. No carbon streaks, no copper.

PopCharlie

PopCharlie,

I would be curious to know what would happen if you took your clean dry gun and ran a bronze brush through it 10 times or so (with solvent of your choice) whether or not the next patch would be clean?

More precisely... Since you're not seeing carbon streaks in your clean barrel with your scope (if I'm reading your post correctly), would you get a clean patch?
 
Ya, I get that, but the patches after using JB come out totally "BLACK", don't they? Mine do, Iosso too.

I get that and agree. I have been using BT Eliminator for a long time. I am not talking about the "green" staining, I am concerned about the "black". Like I said, I don't see it in the bore scope, but yet after 20 brush strokes it' still there???
If the bore scope reveals that the carbon has been removed, then I'd trust that observation and look somewhere else if "black residue" bothers you. However, before I would pursue more cleaning or more aggressive procedures, I would see how the rifle performs. If it's performing up to your standards, I personally wouldn't worry about it. However, if you want to pursue this, I listed some thoughts below even though I'm not sure any of these are relevant.

What kind of jag you using? If it's aluminum could aluminum oxide be forming by reaction with the solvent? I don't know since I've never used Eliminator - just a thought.

Have you cleaned the chamber? Could you be picking up carbon build up in the chamber and / or lugs?

Get a small bottle of C4 and try it following Bore Tech's instructions. You can use a copper jag with this solvent. This stuff really does a great job removing carbon.
 
PopCharlie,

I would be curious to know what would happen if you took your clean dry gun and ran a bronze brush through it 10 times or so (with solvent of your choice) whether or not the next patch would be clean?

More precisely... Since you're not seeing carbon streaks in your clean barrel with your scope (if I'm reading your post correctly), would you get a clean patch?
Funny....I actually tried this earlier this morning. I used a worn bronze brush, squirted Free All on it and stroked it 5 strokes. (1 stroke = down and back). Then dry patched out. The first patch came out light gray with some darker streaks. 4 patches later, no more gray. The barrel did not look any cleaner. It is quite possible there is more carbon in there, but I didn't see it on the scope.
So that leads to questions: How clean is clean enough? What does that look like? Etc etc.

PopCharlie
 
Funny....I actually tried this earlier this morning. I used a worn bronze brush, squirted Free All on it and stroked it 5 strokes. (1 stroke = down and back). Then dry patched out. The first patch came out light gray with some darker streaks. 4 patches later, no more gray. The barrel did not look any cleaner. It is quite possible there is more carbon in there, but I didn't see it on the scope.
So that leads to questions: How clean is clean enough? What does that look like? Etc etc.

PopCharlie

We know that bronze brushes physically wear down with use.

I'm increasingly convinced that the cast off bronze is enough to produced "fouled" patches no matter how clean the barrel is; particularly if the brush is fairly new and tight. Which is to say, I can't trust the first few patches after brushing as an indicator.
 
FYI,
The SDS for Free All says it contains methyl isobutyl ketone and oleic acid. One of those ingredients dissolves nitrocellulose, which is the main ingredient of gun powder. I believe it's the MIK. Maybe what we see on the gray patches after treating a "clean" barrel is dissolved nitrocellulose. If it is, it may be very difficult to fully remove all the nitrocellulose residue. This would also explain Ned Ludd's experience when cleaning an unfired barrel blank. Just a guess.

PopCharlie
 

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