Brass scratching after sizing

[jlow]

It does not take a lot to get galling to cause the embed brass particles, just one or two cases that is not lubricated properly and you see that problem showing up.

Cleaning and polishing is not rocket science but more of a common sense. Use a very light abrasive which polish but do not take significant amount of material from your die and you will be in good shape. I have polished mandrel with the Rubbing Compound No.7 I mentioned in Reply#13 and you cannot detect diameter difference with a digital Mito micrometer which can measure down to 0.00005”. BTW, brass clearner is in fact a light polish and will work just fine. You should of course do yourself a favor and check with a magnifier to see if the galling exist, that will confirm the source of your problem one way or another.

 

[craig6547]

Jlow , thanks for your input there. I will get onto this tonight and see what my finds are with the magnifier.




Craig

 

[jlow]

Not a problem. We all run into this fustrating thing and I am glad to help another reloader to avoid what I went through.

 

[craig6547]

Ok guys I had a go tonight using brasso, brass cleaner. It's not fixed my problem yet but I feel it's closer as the scratches arnt as bad as they were but still bad enough. I'm wanting to try some fine wet/dry and try again.

Once I finished up with the brasso tonight I cleaned out the die, assembled and tried sizing again but scratched again and I've now noticed a lot more scratching on the neck when I never had before. After inspection I can clearly see a build up of brass on the neck part of the die.

Any tips of how to polish up the neck portion of the die and how to get wet/dry in the die that will have a good fit?

Craig

 

[jlow]

Looks like your problem was not so much lube but the finish on the die.

As suggested earlier, get some of that “Rubbing Compound No. 7” from Ace Hardware (not expensive just a few bucks and will last you a life time), polish with it on something at the end of a drill. You will need more than a Q-tip since dies are bigger but even something as simple as gauze wrapped on the end of a wooden stick will work. Polish only until it is shiny and you are done.

 

[Trevor60]

The die may not be hardened. That's what brass from an un-heat treated sizing die looks like. Hit the edge of the die with a file. If it cuts easily, I bet you found the problem. Try it on a known good die to get a feel for what the file should and should not do to it.

gunsandgunsmithing has it right. I experienced the exact same thing with my die and determined it hadn't been hardened switched to another die, I had on hand and the problem went away.

Trevor

 

[jlow]

Don’t have experience with die which has not been hardened but at least with Redding bushings, my scratches were caused by the galling and polishing it out the way I described and using a good lube like Imperial completely removed the problem.

 

[bigedp51]

Ok guys I had a go tonight using brasso, brass cleaner. It's not fixed my problem yet but I feel it's closer as the scratches arnt as bad as they were but still bad enough. I'm wanting to try some fine wet/dry and try again.

Once I finished up with the brasso tonight I cleaned out the die, assembled and tried sizing again but scratched again and I've now noticed a lot more scratching on the neck when I never had before. After inspection I can clearly see a build up of brass on the neck part of the die.

Any tips of how to polish up the neck portion of the die and how to get wet/dry in the die that will have a good fit?

Craig

Use a shotgun mop and J&B bore paste, the abrasive grit is softer than steel and will not change the dimensions of your die. Brasso is for polishing soft brass and steel wool is steel rubbing on steel.

If you use any type of sandpaper you can change and alter the dimensions of the die. I just cleaned a 30-06 die this way using J&B bore paste I have had since 1973 and I have been doing it this way for over 46 years of reloading.

You just want to remove the grit embedded inside the die and NOT change the dimensions of the die. They sell Kroil and J&B bore paste together for cleaning your rifles bore. If you don't have any Kroil then use a good copper bore solvent and J&B on the mop to remove any sticking brass.

Also remember that automotive rubbing compounds, cleaners, etc have a soft abrasive grit designed for car paints and will not abrade metal. Now would you use sandpaper or steel wool to clean your cars paint?

 

[jlow]

LOL! Big Ed you are too funny.

But the idea of using the “Rubbing Compound No. 7” is good is precisely because it is so “soft”. I can tell you from firsthand experience that it works wonderfully on the Redding bushings or for that matter on expanding and turning mandrels, turning giving them a mirror finish and not significantly changing their dimensions.

Not saying that other methods may not work well, just this I know does.

 

[bigedp51]

LOL! Big Ed you are too funny.

But the idea of using the “Rubbing Compound No. 7” is good is precisely because it is so “soft”. I can tell you from firsthand experience that it works wonderfully on the Redding bushings or for that matter on expanding and turning mandrels, turning giving them a mirror finish and not significantly changing their dimensions.

Not saying that other methods may not work well, just this I know does.

What would "NOT" be funny is ruining an expensive Forster die set with improper and excessive cleaning methods. (less is more)

Below is a brand new expander mandrel that I used on just 20 30-06 cases last night for the first time. It needs to be cleaned and polished to get rid of the brass build up and rough surface areas. Normal copper solvents will remove the brass with a little help with a tooth brush and a little abrasive polish.

A little automotive #7 polishing compound and finished up with Mothers Mag and Aluminum polish works wonders. And again if its safe for paint and soft aluminum its not going to damage your hardened steel dies. The Mothers mag polish leaves a protective wax coating that protects the metal surface from brake pad dust and road salts. ;D (that was humor jlow)

 

[jlow]

LOL! Big Ed you are too funny.

But the idea of using the “Rubbing Compound No. 7” is good is precisely because it is so “soft”. I can tell you from firsthand experience that it works wonderfully on the Redding bushings or for that matter on expanding and turning mandrels, turning giving them a mirror finish and not significantly changing their dimensions.

Not saying that other methods may not work well, just this I know does.

What would "NOT" be funny is ruining an expensive Forster die set with improper and excessive cleaning methods. (less is more)

Below is a brand new expander mandrel that I used on just 20 30-06 cases last night for the first time. It needs to be cleaned and polished to get rid of the brass build up and rough surface areas. Normal copper solvents will remove the brass with a little help with a tooth brush and a little abrasive polish.

A little automotive #7 polishing compound and finished up with Mothers Mag and Aluminum polish works wonders. And again if its safe for paint and soft aluminum its not going to damage your hardened steel dies. The Mothers mag polish leaves a protective wax coating that protects the metal surface from brake pad dust and road salts. ;D (that was humor jlow)

Roger that! Thanks bud! ;D

 

[MrMajestic]

Big Ed, You may want to recycle that brass, looks like a couple bucks there! ;D

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Carbide mandrels are much less prone to galling. They have a very smooth finish, are extremely dense, and much harder than standard mandrels or....or even properly hardened dies.


The die hardness may not be the problem, but it would be very easy to check against a known good die and the brass looks exactly like brass that I have personally run through a die that was not hardened, but had a mirror finish inside. I still have that die. I'll run a piece or two through it and try and post pics tomorrow.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Here's a before and after pic of a new piece of brass that I fireformed without a bullet. It's not quite formed like I like them..yet. I polished it with never dull, before sizing to better show what's happening and to make sure that there were no vertical scratches before sizing it.


The sizer die was made of a piece of 416 ss barrel stub. They are typically around 36 rockwell. I cleaned and polished the die to a mirror finish...way better than any standard I've ever looked at, then borescoped it inside, to make absolutely certain there was no brass galling or dirt in it to create the scratches. I lubed the case with Imperial sizing lube and ran it through the die ONCE.


Sorry for the poor pic quality, but it's good enough to see what I've been talking about.


BEFORE

AFTER sizing

 

[craig6547]

Yip looks exactly like mine bud. Was this due to the die not being hardened ?




Craig

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Yip looks exactly like mine bud. Was this due to the die not being hardened ?




Craig

Yes. In fact, I polished so much, trying to help the scratching, that I ruined the die...No big loss, but still. It looked way better than any die I've ever used..factory or custom. Again, I cleaned it very well and borescoped it to make certain nothing was in the die before I sized that piece of brass. Would you like to see a piece of brass run through a type s full bushing die...that I never clean, finish looks like crap..yet it doesn't scratch the brass like this?


This might not be what's going on with yours, but it sure does look the same in the pics.
BTW, a soft die does gall. That's why we harden them. It doesn't matter how smooth we think we have them...if it's not hard enough, it will gall and scratch brass.---Mike Ezell

 

[jlow]

Thanks for sharing – very interesting. Would be interested in seeing close up of that case “AFTER sizing” to see if the scratches matches what the OP is seeing, and also one that has run through a “hardened” die.

As for the die not being hardened, is hardening normal and if so are you saying that the die was not treated properly or that it is a cheaper die (it was a Forster FL bench rest die according to the OP?) vs. the carbide die?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Thanks for sharing – very interesting. Would be interested in seeing close up of that case “AFTER sizing” to see if the scratches matches what the OP is seeing, and also one that has run through a “hardened” die.

As for the die not being hardened, is hardening normal and if so are you saying that the die was not treated properly or that it is a cheaper die (it was a Forster FL bench rest die according to the OP?) vs. the carbide die?

jlow,
The second pic is of a sized piece of brass. The scratching does seem very, very much like what the op's looks like, but that's the best pic I can do. I could take a pic of a piece that's been run through a properly hardened die, but it'd just look the same but without all the scratches. You'll just have to take my word for that.


Yes, hardening of dies is normal and necessary. I'm not saying that his die is "cheap" or that Forster makes a bad product...only that it appears to give the same characteristics of a die that has not been properly heat treated. He could easily do as I stated a few posts prior, and check it against a known good die, with a file. A file will cut a good die..sort of., but the difference should be fairly apparent, if one is much harder than the other. Or, he could just send them a link the this thread, along with his die and let them determine the cause. I'm sure they will stand behind their product if it's found to be the problem. Assuming he is using enough of a good sizing lube and that the die is clean I think it's fair to say that the die has a problem. He has stated that the die is new.

 

[jlow]

Thanks! That is what I was trying to figure out. So perhaps his die was mistakenly not hardened - Well I guess anything can happen…

So to get a bit more information about this, why does a hardened or for that matter a carbide die (which is even harder) scratch less? Seems a bit counter intuitive on the surface even though I know for a fact that a carbide die is more slippery (and not necessarily smoother) and say for example in a pistol die requires less or no lube?

 

[bigedp51]

I'm not saying the OP has a die that wasn't heat treated because I have purchased quite a few new dies in the last year that were on the rough side.

Two of them were Titanium carbide and Titanium nitride dies and they required more force to size than a standard pistol die. I also had to polish a brand new Redding .223 die because of what were are seeing here and the force required to resized the case.

Bottom line, it appears that cost cutting is going on to save production costs and final polishing is one of the cost saving items.

"BUT" again I have also seen this caused by embedded polishing media from vibratory case cleaners using walnut media and the "abrasive" being imbedded in the die surface. Also the type of "case lube" can effect this and how much shear and film strength the lube has.