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Brass not sizing properly

How is it possible that I can run through 100 pieces of once fired Lapua brass that I just annealed, and I push the shoulder back .002 from 1.4675 to 1.4655 and get very consistent results with all pieces of brass within .0005+/-. But when I try to resize my older 4 times fired brass, also just annealed, it just doesn't want to size down. The only way I can get it to push the shoulder back is if I adjust the Forester resizing die even more, but now if I put one of the once fired pieces I already sized (down to 1.4655) through the die (with the new adjustment) it now drops another .002, so now it's .004 pushed back to 1.4635.

It is clear my loads have been too hot, and I need to back off on powder as I am getting signs of pressure, therefore the older 4 times fired brass has been "abused". So maybe it's just no good anymore? It just makes no sense to me that 100 pieces come out to 1.4655, but when I run the old stuff through it's like it was never touched, goes from 1.4675 to 1.4675.

This is for a 6.5x47. I use a Rock Chucker w/ a Forester FL sizing die, expander ball removed because I use a 21st Century mandrel after sizing. I use a very consistent application of lubing my cases as well. The older 4 times fired brass was annealed after the 3rd firing, and then again after the 4th firing right before I tried to resize it today.

The reason I have 100 pieces of this once fired brass to work with is because I was having inconsistencies w/ the older brass and wanted to see what would happen with some fresh brass. In fact I feel that I may have been having some issues w/ the aluminum locking ring on the FL sizing die as it looked kinda of tore up. I was concerned that maybe it was distorted, so I replaced it w/ a new Hornady locking ring that is steel, and I think that helped on the once fired brass. But this older brass is just stubborn as heck and will not cooperate. And before you ask, I am ritualistic about my resizing w/ consistent pulls of the lever and length of time in the die etc. I MEASURED EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF BRASS! I obviously have OCD issues. Thank you for any input on this.
 
Greetings,
Have you tried increasing the time the case is in the sizing die?
John
Yes I have, and it makes no difference. I try to make every stroke as consistent as possible, but I have tried holding for anywhere from 1 to 5 seconds and see no changes.
 
This is very simple.

Annealed brass has less spring back than if it has been four shots since it was annealed. We run into this sort of thing at short range group benchrest matches, where it is common to work with a small number of cases, loading them over and over in the course of a two or more day match. As cases work harden, FL dies have to be adjusted to maintain the same bump.

Some time ago, I forgot that the die in my press had been adjusted for 6PPC brass that had been fired many times and had never been annealed. The next time I sized some cases they had perhaps one firing past fire forming. Luckily I checked shoulder bump after only a couple had been sized. The setting that had produced only.001 bump on the work hardened brass, bumped the softer cases .0035.

Some years before that a friend was annealing magnum cases to uniform shoulder bump. He found that after only 3-4 firings after annealing that his bump consistency issue returned, which told him that he would have to anneal every time or every other time if he wanted consistent bump. The amount of work hardening will depend on the amount of dimensional change the FL die gives compared to a sized case.
 
How is it possible that I can run through 100 pieces of once fired Lapua brass that I just annealed, and I push the shoulder back .002 from 1.4675 to 1.4655 and get very consistent results with all pieces of brass within .0005+/-. But when I try to resize my older 4 times fired brass, also just annealed, it just doesn't want to size down. The only way I can get it to push the shoulder back is if I adjust the Forester resizing die even more, but now if I put one of the once fired pieces I already sized (down to 1.4655) through the die (with the new adjustment) it now drops another .002, so now it's .004 pushed back to 1.4635.

It is clear my loads have been too hot, and I need to back off on powder as I am getting signs of pressure, therefore the older 4 times fired brass has been "abused". So maybe it's just no good anymore? It just makes no sense to me that 100 pieces come out to 1.4655, but when I run the old stuff through it's like it was never touched, goes from 1.4675 to 1.4675.

This is for a 6.5x47. I use a Rock Chucker w/ a Forester FL sizing die, expander ball removed because I use a 21st Century mandrel after sizing. I use a very consistent application of lubing my cases as well. The older 4 times fired brass was annealed after the 3rd firing, and then again after the 4th firing right before I tried to resize it today.

The reason I have 100 pieces of this once fired brass to work with is because I was having inconsistencies w/ the older brass and wanted to see what would happen with some fresh brass. In fact I feel that I may have been having some issues w/ the aluminum locking ring on the FL sizing die as it looked kinda of tore up. I was concerned that maybe it was distorted, so I replaced it w/ a new Hornady locking ring that is steel, and I think that helped on the once fired brass. But this older brass is just stubborn as heck and will not cooperate. And before you ask, I am ritualistic about my resizing w/ consistent pulls of the lever and length of time in the die etc. I MEASURED EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF BRASS! I obviously have OCD issues. Thank you for any input on this.
Hmmm??? Am curious as to you're detailed method for annealing?

The way I understand your 4X fired brass wasn't annealed until after that 4th firing. And along with what BoydAllen said above, it sounds to me like your annealing isn't actually giving you the anneal result you think you're getting, which results in more spring back than expected (like Boyd's taking about).
 
Did you measure the brass diameter? Brass that are "fatter" will actually lengthen when you size them back to the correct diameter.
 
Hmmm??? Am curious as to you're detailed method for annealing?

The way I understand your 4X fired brass wasn't annealed until after that 4th firing. And along with what BoydAllen said above, it sounds to me like your annealing isn't actually giving you the anneal result you think you're getting, which results in more spring back than expected (like Boyd's taking about).

How is it possible that I can run through 100 pieces of once fired Lapua brass that I just annealed, and I push the shoulder back .002 from 1.4675 to 1.4655 and get very consistent results with all pieces of brass within .0005+/-. But when I try to resize my older 4 times fired brass, also just annealed, it just doesn't want to size down. The only way I can get it to push the shoulder back is if I adjust the Forester resizing die even more, but now if I put one of the once fired pieces I already sized (down to 1.4655) through the die (with the new adjustment) it now drops another .002, so now it's .004 pushed back to 1.4635.

It is clear my loads have been too hot, and I need to back off on powder as I am getting signs of pressure, therefore the older 4 times fired brass has been "abused". So maybe it's just no good anymore? It just makes no sense to me that 100 pieces come out to 1.4655, but when I run the old stuff through it's like it was never touched, goes from 1.4675 to 1.4675.

This is for a 6.5x47. I use a Rock Chucker w/ a Forester FL sizing die, expander ball removed because I use a 21st Century mandrel after sizing. I use a very consistent application of lubing my cases as well. The older 4 times fired brass was annealed after the 3rd firing, and then again after the 4th firing right before I tried to resize it today.

The reason I have 100 pieces of this once fired brass to work with is because I was having inconsistencies w/ the older brass and wanted to see what would happen with some fresh brass. In fact I feel that I may have been having some issues w/ the aluminum locking ring on the FL sizing die as it looked kinda of tore up. I was concerned that maybe it was distorted, so I replaced it w/ a new Hornady locking ring that is steel, and I think that helped on the once fired brass. But this older brass is just stubborn as heck and will not cooperate. And before you ask, I am ritualistic about my resizing w/ consistent pulls of the lever and length of time in the die etc. I MEASURED EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF BRASS! I obviously have OCD issues. Thank you for any input on this.
The term anneal is ambiguous. You can stress relieve and anneal to many levels. If your using 750F Tempilaq to indicate when to stop annealing, your probably getting zero anneal and maybe a very tiny amount of stress relief. The case necks are getting harder each time you fire and anneal. You cannot stress relieve or anneal at 750F for a fraction of a second.
 
I was going to say that you should anneal the 4 times fired brass two times or three times. I see videos of people quenching their brass after heating. I don’t think that’s a good idea. Air cool. I’m not a metallurgist but I know if I quench steel after heating, cutting or welding it gets very hard. I’ve been told that repeated annealling doesn’t hurt anything but it does change your process.
 
That particular batch of brass is too hard to respond to your die settings. When brass does not respond accordingly, try re annealing correctly a little longer and hold in die a few seconds longer. When I get a few pieces of what I call "maverick" brass that won't respond to the annealing or resizing, I decide to whether re set my die, or chunk them in the trash can or for junk cases to test set neck turning dimensions. In your case, I prefer the flame annealer's to set down further down on the shoulder to anneal.

DJ
DJ's Brass Service
 
Which annealer? If flame type do you see the orange Starburst for 3/4 of a second? Sounds like you aren't annealing long enough, or Aztec code is off. As stated multiple anneals will not harm brass. Quenching is a waste of time.11.5 thousandths to 11.25 thousandths will change Aztec code number by 2.
 
If I have the correct pilot you can send it to me and I'll use the AMP annealer (would cost one or two pieces of brass) and anneal it for you if you are interested. I didn't see where you live on your profile, if close you can just come over.
EDIT: Just looked it takes pilot #50, I don't have that, sorry.
 
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The term anneal is ambiguous. You can stress relieve and anneal to many levels. If your using 750F Tempilaq to indicate when to stop annealing, your probably getting zero anneal and maybe a very tiny amount of stress relief. The case necks are getting harder each time you fire and anneal. You cannot stress relieve or anneal at 750F for a fraction of a second.
Are you saying I may need to extend the dwell time in the flame for a bit? 1/4 of a sec to 1/2 a second or so? I am using the Bench Source annealer w/ 2 bottles.
 
Which annealer? If flame type do you see the orange Starburst for 3/4 of a second? Sounds like you aren't annealing long enough, or Aztec code is off. As stated multiple anneals will not harm brass. Quenching is a waste of time.11.5 thousandths to 11.25 thousandths will change Aztec code number by 2.
Using a bench source annealer and I did feel I was getting the "starburst" for just a moment. The individual guiding me in this process has been using this annealer for years, and has consistently gotten 20-25 firings out of his 6.5x47 Lapua brass while maintaining accuracy.
 
What color do the necks turn while in the flame? If you're not seeing dull red to perhaps even a little brighter red in a darkened room, the annealing process is insufficient, especially considering the short dwell time (1/4 s).

The effects of annealing are manifested via a combination of both temperature and time. The annealing process typically used by reloaders is not really "full-blown annealing" at all. The brass hardness and grain structure are only starting to change with the parameters commonly used. We certainly aren't nuking case necks until they're bright reddish orange in a fully lighted room and leaving them at that temperature for tens of seconds to minutes. Thus, if one's annealing process tends to the short side, the brass may be insufficiently annealed. A dull red color in a darkened room equates to a minimum temperature range of around 800-850 degrees F. Using a single flame annealing machine that rolls the cases (Giraud), my cases typically remain in the flame for about 10-12 seconds, and they are a dull red for maybe as long as 4-5 seconds at the end of that process.

Given the sizing issues and annealing approach you described, it seems probable that insufficient annealing is the root cause. I would suggest re-annealing just a case or two a little more aggressively to see if it makes a difference in the sizing porcess.
 
Using a bench source annealer and I did feel I was getting the "starburst" for just a moment. The individual guiding me in this process has been using this annealer for years, and has consistently gotten 20-25 firings out of his 6.5x47 Lapua brass while maintaining accuracy.
You have to heat until the neck turns orange. Different people will interpret different degrees of orange. I heat with a handheld torch till the neck is orange for 1-2 seconds. By star burst I assume you are talking about when the flame turns yellow. The yellow has nothing to do with over heating or zinc burning off.

Will add the article on yellow later. It gets into physics and electron orbits changing.

The Origin of Flame Colors
If you excite an atom or an ion by very strong heating, electrons can be promoted from their normal unexcited state into higher orbitals. As they fall back down to lower levels (either in one go or in several steps), energy is released as light. Each of these jumps involves a specific amount of energy being released as light energy, and each corresponds to a particular wavelength (or frequency). As a result of all these jumps, a spectrum of lines will be produced, some of which will be in the visible part of the spectrum. The color you see will be a combination of all these individual colors.

Nothing to do with damage or over heating. It's not Zn burning off. I have never seen sparks flame annealing.
 
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I'm talking about a orange Starburst that is clearly visible on a dual torch benchsource. As the neck starts to turn orange/red..you will see this change if flame in the conversion area. I always went another 3/4 second. It is always consistent with the neck changing color. I used a benchsource for my 6.5x47 and had 10 loadings before I retired the bbl. Never had an issue with consistent bump. I was running 130s at 2950. Have changed to Amp.
 
Up your time in flame by , let’s say two seconds, resize the case. If that’s not enough add two more seconds till the dimension comes in.

I place the flame from one torch head at the neck-body junction for 7-9 seconds. Neck turns red orange to bright orange. I anneal after every firing.

Ensure press linkage play is removed. Some cases are harder than others and will resist the sizing die.

Good luck!
 
Are you saying I may need to extend the dwell time in the flame for a bit? 1/4 of a sec to 1/2 a second or so? I am using the Bench Source annealer w/ 2 bottles.
My thinking is along with what Webster is saying. It's not that 750°F won't do any annealing, it's the amount of time at that temperature that counts. When using Tempilaq 750, one is dropping it out of the heat when it turns, which is not letting it do the job that Webster suggests. So, yes. . . a longer dwell time would be better. This is why I switched to the "glow method" to determine when to drop my brass out of the fame. In doing so, I get much better results than when I tried using that Tempilaq.
 
If you are using an AMP, you may find that the older brass needs a different code to newer, say, once fired brass. I only know this from experience, not the manual, having had this issue with some older Norma 308 that was exhibiting the same issues as the OP, used before I bought the AMP. S0 - re analyse the older brass and generate a different code.
 

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