Brass hardness

[sp260]

Is the hardness in brass vary between manufactures?
If so who's are harder and softer?
Thanks

 

[asauer]

What caliber? I think you'll get a million different answers without a specific cartridge in mind. And even then, it's a general guide, not a guarantee. Manufacturing tolerances and all...

 

[dedogs]

Norma is considered by many to be "soft". Winchester is considered by many to be "hard". All others seem to be considered to fall somewhere in between the two. YMMV. All brass hardens the more it is worked.

 

[wedgy]

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2681140

 

[Road_Clam]

FC = usless soft brass, maybe 3 reloads if you are lucky before the primer pockets are junk ?

LC NATO mill spec brass = TOUGH STUFF

 

[CatShooter]

Is the hardness in brass vary between manufactures?
If so who's are harder and softer?
Thanks

Most guys guess... but here are some real numbers I did in the spring of 2014.

Pardon the mess - it always looks like this in the spring and this spring is worse, cuz Martha Stewart's maid couldn't make it this month, and the woodchucks are calling...

My $2,500 Ames Hardness Gauge -- it is FAA certified and approved for testing aircraft engine parts (you cannot get a better tool than that!)

I measured four cases which were picked at random.

LC 2008 5.56mm
Lapua 223 Match
Winchester 223
Remington (R-P) 223


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Lake City 2008

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Lapua 223 Match

[

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Winchester 223

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Remington (R-P)

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The actual Hardness measurements were (.062"x100kg, Rockwell "B")

LC 2008 = 96

Lapua 223 Match = 86

Norma 30-06 - 76 (added n Dec -'14)

Winchester 223 = 69

Norma .220 Swift = 64 (added in Dec '14)

Remington "R-P" = 49

For all you guys that have been saying that Winchester cases were tougher than Remington... you are vindicated, they are a lot tougher!... 40% tougher

For all you guys that think Lake City is surplus junk, nothing could be further from the truth. It is some of the most bestest brass made (it is paid for by the tax payer), so enjoy it!!!

LC and Lapua are the "The pick of the litter"!


(Ain't modern telephones wunnerful fer pictures ??)

 

[dedogs]

Good show Cat. Wish you could have done Norma. Love to know if it is as soft as many say. Dedogs

 

[Joe Salt]

DUMB QUESTION? Then why does my 300 WSM in Norma out last Winchester by a long shot! Three firing on the Winchester and primer pockets are done. But the norma keeps going. My understanding is some manufactures make the basses harder for that reason. Catshooter you got the gauge what is with this.

Joe Salt

 

[CatShooter]

Good show Cat. Wish you could have done Norma. Love to know if it is as soft as many say. Dedogs

I am shooting Norma now in two rifles... a .220 Swift, and a 30-06 match rifle.

Norma 30-06 = 76

Norma .220 Swift = 64

It is up there with Winchester.

 

[CatShooter]

DUMB QUESTION? Then why does my 300 WSM in Norma out last Winchester by a long shot! Three firing on the Winchester and primer pockets are done. But the norma keeps going. My understanding is some manufactures make the basses harder for that reason. Catshooter you got the gauge what is with this.

Joe Salt

I don't know, Joe - I don't have any Winchester Silly Magnums - if you send me two of each, I will measure them for you and return them.

 

[JRS]

Do you happen to have a piece of RWS brass you would be willing to check CatShooter?

 

[jlow]

Interesting data and a good start, but I think getting to the bottom of this can be tricky.

For example, what is the consistency of hardness between samples from the same batch or between different lots. Unless one only test a bunch of brand new unfired brass (I would say at least 5-10), one would not know if the hardness was random variation between samples and/or also a change in work hardening due to one or more firing.

Even with new brass, one would have to test multiple lots to figure out what the lot to lot consistency is. Also is the hardness consistent within manufacturer i.e. any difference between different calibers?

We see this type of variation with case weight, neck thickness even with Lapua and so hardness I would think is potentially not different.

 

[Shynloco]

Cat,
That is a very both a very educational and impressive test you ran. From purely a novice standpoint in terms of the make-up pf brass, your results are pretty much what I expected based upon my past experiences with a variety of brass I have shot over the years. I guess the only one I didn't see tested was Federal that I reload on occasion for general use.

And Jim's comments are well taken also because of the simple notion of variables, even with manufactured brass, as I guess it would then become a question of who makes the most consistent brass, from lot to lot. And speaking only for myself and my experiences, I'd have to say Lapua qualifies from my way of thinking. And though softer brass, I've found that Norma is some pretty reliable brass as well, not to say the rest of the brass isn't good brass as well (and I've found sometimes it becomes a question of the application of the brass in terms of the discipline in which it is used).

But overall, nice job Cat!
Alex

 

[dedogs]

Cat, Thanks for the Norma update. As far as Johns comments about testing larger samples and different lots/calibers of brass it seems to me that the percentage of difference between manufacturers would preclude the need to do this. Thankyou for taking the time to do these tests as I'm sure we are all finding out useful information. dedogs

 

[CatShooter]

Do you happen to have a piece of RWS brass you would be willing to check CatShooter?

No... send me one or two and I will measure it.

Interesting data and a good start, but I think getting to the bottom of this can be tricky.

For example, what is the consistency of hardness between samples from the same batch or between different lots. Unless one only test a bunch of brand new unfired brass (I would say at least 5-10), one would not know if the hardness was random variation between samples and/or also a change in work hardening due to one or more firing.

Even with new brass, one would have to test multiple lots to figure out what the lot to lot consistency is. Also is the hardness consistent within manufacturer i.e. any difference between different calibers?

We see this type of variation with case weight, neck thickness even with Lapua and so hardness I would think is potentially not different.

The hardness will vary within lots and that is to be expected - case manufacturers are not as anal compulsive as some groups of shooters are... and cases must be affordable.

But in lot variances are not affecting accuracy, so I will take random sample as indicative of production method averages.

The head's hardness is a result of how the cases are made, and to a lesser extent, the alloy (which does vary between makers).

Cat,

That is a very both a very educational and impressive test you ran. From purely a novice standpoint in terms of the make-up of brass, your results are pretty much what I expected based upon my past experiences with a variety of brass I have shot over the years. I guess the only one I didn't see tested was Federal that I reload on occasion for general use.

And Jim's comments are well taken also because of the simple notion of variables, even with manufactured brass, as I guess it would then become a question of who makes the most consistent brass, from lot to lot. And speaking only for myself and my experiences, I'd have to say Lapua qualifies from my way of thinking. And though softer brass, I've found that Norma is some pretty reliable brass as well, not to say the rest of the brass isn't good brass as well (and I've found sometimes it becomes a question of the application of the brass in terms of the discipline in which it is used).

But overall, nice job Cat!
Alex

Alex... the reason I didn't do Federal is I won't keep the crap in my place. I won't even pick it up at the range.

And dedogs... the update was for you

 

[Changeling]

Thanks for the information CatShooter, I for one really appreciate your taking the time and effort to provide it.

I really believe your approach and thoughts on testing and samples is adequate for a representation of what one could basically expect from the different manufactures.

Unfortunately I would also really like to see a RWS example as it is generally considered very hard/tough brass but I have none to send you for testing. Hopefully one of the other guys will have a couple pieces they can send you.

Your $2,500 Ames Hardness Gauge, OUCH, that's a lot of money!

 

[jlow]

Thanks! Will look forward to results!

 

[barefooter56]

CatShooter,
Question. I have heard that the LAPUA and NORMA cartridge cases have more zinc in them than Winchester , Remington, ETC. That is why they can be reloaded many more times than our domestic brass. The other factor that helps are the tight primer pockets , especially the LAPUA cartridge cases. Is the ratio of zinc to copper the key to good brass?
Thanks!
Phil Hoham Berger Bullet Tech

 

[CatShooter]

CatShooter,
Question. I have heard that the LAPUA and NORMA cartridge cases have more zinc in them than Winchester , Remington, ETC. That is why they can be reloaded many more times than our domestic brass. The other factor that helps are the tight primer pockets , especially the LAPUA cartridge cases. Is the ratio of zinc to copper the key to good brass?
Thanks!
Phil Hoham Berger Bullet Tech

Phil...

I am not sure. My industrial manuals are still packed away, but this I remember - while standard cartridge brass is 70%/30% Copper-Zinc, the Zinc can vary, and less Zinc makes softer brass.

And our cases are made of industrial grade brass, which is not the same from batch to batch. It's not like a metallurgist in a white lab coat says, "We only have 29.7% Zinc - throw more Zinc in the mix."... it is more like some guy on work jeans says "It looks like maybe 27%, go with it!"

I think the European makes are more in line with the white lab coat process. If you look at the grain structure under a microscope of Lapua and US... it will really wake you up, and you will understand why Lapua, Norma, and RWS brass is twice+ the price of US brass.

One of the things to remember is that cartridge companies are making a disposable container that goes "Bang" once and is thrown away.. it is us munchkins that pick it up and reuse it.

So the limits of what they do, is based on what we will pay. If American reloaders (as a whole group)were willing to pay $1.50+ each, then the companies would compete for the business by making better cases - but, with the exception of some of us, most people use brass cases as they were intended - one use and lost in the woods.

That being said, I don't think you can make a firm statement about brass case alloys. The hardness in the head-web is more a result of how the case is formed... if you force the head by a hydraulic press, it will be very soft, whereas, if you hammer it with many blows, it will be hard... so it is process which is the key factor.

Back in the beginning of time (~1975) I bought a new 40XB Rangemaster in 22-250, and 400 pieces of Winchester brass.

I was annealing way back then, and I annealed those cases every few loadings - I neck sized them, and burned out the barrel on PD's.... I replaced the barrel, and the cases would just chamber tightly, and after the first firing, they fit fine, so I burned out the second barrel on PD's... and a third.
I burned out two more barrels, only having to FL the cases on the last two barrels, for the first firing.... I annealed the cases all those years.

About 4 or 5 years ago, I rebarreled that 40XB to .244 Rem 10-T, and packed the cases and dies away, cuz I took the 12 step pledge on the 22-250. No more... I mean, the 22-250 was boring

About 2 years ago, I fell off the wagon and picked up a yummy 700 VSF with less than 150 rounds through it.

But now, Lapua was making 22-250, so I threw out what what was left of the original 400 pcs - about 370-ish, cuz some were left in the grass.

The point being that those cases never failed from splits or pocket expansion. The loads I used were probably in the 50-55 Kpsia range. Heavy in those days, but kinda light by today's standards.

They had ~45 loading on them.

 

[barefooter56]

CatShooter,
Did you make a cast of the chamber of the original barrel on the .22-250 so the new barrel(s) were chambered to the same or almost the same dimensions? Sounds like the last two barrels had a little shorter chamber than the others because of the full length sizing step. Annealing and similar chambers must make a real difference in brass life along with sizing and load. Either that or Winchester was making REALLY good brass back then or at least that lot! lol !! At my last job I always used the "coat hanger" description to explain how brass was affected by sizing. "if you bent the coat back and forth in small amounts it lasted longer that if you bent the hanger back and forth in large amounts. That explanation was easy to understand. If you find your Industrial manuals let us know what you find out!
Thanks CatShooter!
Merry Christmas!
Phil