Bore changes and ammo preference.

[Alex Wheeler]

One of the main complaints I see from rimfire or potential rimfire competitors is the ammo. Finding the right lot and then the cost. Many will say that others can afford to buy more so they have a leg up. One of my customers who is very experienced in the rimfire game told me that around 2500 rounds the barrel changes enough that if you retest it, it will pick a different lot. So he only buys half cases now. I dont know if any of you have shared this experience. But if thats a common thing, then the ammo complaint could go away.

 

[foxguy]

I don't know about that, but I was told that a new barrel isn't broke in until 1000 rounds have been fired thru it and it will start to shoot smaller. All interesting. I'm looking forward to seeing additional comments in regards to bore changes....

 

[Tony K Harper]

One of the main complaints I see from rimfire or potential rimfire competitors is the ammo. Finding the right lot and then the cost. Many will say that others can afford to buy more so they have a leg up. One of my customers who is very experienced in the rimfire game told me that around 2500 rounds the barrel changes enough that if you retest it, it will pick a different lot. So he only buys half cases now. I dont know if any of you have shared this experience. But if thats a common thing, then the ammo complaint could go away.

Alex,

The truth is if you test a rifle (barreled action) with just 10 different lots it will perform best with a different lot nearly every single time. I am speaking of testing done the way it is done at the testing centers.

As a matter of fact, it would be highly unusual for a barreled action to test the same scores back-to-back during the same testing cycle.

When testing and you find what you think is the best lot you hope and pray that it repeats acceptably. When you do your confirmation retest rarely if ever will it repeat the same scores three or more times.
Hopefully, the retest is still acceptable but rarely better than the first test.

If you study the scores shot in competitions, you will see most shooters have at least one card that is much worse than their others. Avoiding that one card is often the difference in the overall match winner.

TKH

 

[whiddengunworks]

Interesting timing as I have just completed some limited testing on this topic.

First, barrel break in depends highly on chamber finish. Some never really break in, some are ready in 20 rounds.

Second, I have just retested my own rifle. It was built last spring and now has near 7,000 rounds on it. It shot right at a 13.4mm (50M average for 4 groups of 10 shots) on the test range last spring with a certain lot of ammo. I shot it quite a bit then and found it very reliably shot that level of accuracy.

Last week, after the 7,000 rounds it still averaged about 13.4mm with that same ammo.

My experience with this one barrel is that there's no real change in 7,000 rounds. I'll continue to shoot, test, and report about it.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Interesting timing as I have just completed some limited testing on this topic.

First, barrel break in depends highly on chamber finish. Some never really break in, some are ready in 20 rounds.

Second, I have just retested my own rifle. It was built last spring and now has near 7,000 rounds on it. It shot right at a 13.4mm (50M average for 4 groups of 10 shots) on the test range last spring with a certain lot of ammo. I shot it quite a bit then and found it very reliably shot that level of accuracy.

Last week, after the 7,000 rounds it still averaged about 13.4mm with that same ammo.

My experience with this one barrel is that there's no real change in 7,000 rounds. I'll continue to shoot, test, and report about it.

Thats good info. Got the last barrel I was waiting on. Will be contacting you about a testing day, 2 rifles and 4 barrels.

 

[1813benny]

I have a few thoughts to throw into the discussion.

First, I believe that with today's taper lapped barrels it is often mentioned that it takes about 1000 rounds to "break in". I think if any change occurs, its in the chamber leade area and not the balance of the barrel itself.

I have had polar opposite results with the "break in" on new barrels. The first new barrel was installed on by Karl Kenyon and it shot incredible right out of the gate with no change over it's competitive lifespan. Another subsequent barrel that performed just as well (installed by another 'smith) did take several bricks of ammo to reach the peak of it's performance. With that said, the "change" was very slight.

Second, as for "seeing" a change after 2500 rounds, I would have to ask this level of "change" and if this is not just a case of measurement error or are the results in the area of white noise of lot shot to shot variation. The test set up to see such a change would definitely have to effectively exclude human and environmental factors and the measurement techniques would also come into play.

Finally, I had a discussion with one of our Olympic champions several years ago about the barrels she was using. She was using an Anschutz 20xx series action and had a collection of barrels from Lilja that she rotated for training, matches and international level matches. She noted that the accuracy of the barrels had changed over several sets and that the last few were degrading notably after 17-20k rounds. Apparently, she was told that a softer steel was being used and that was causing the faster degradation. I can only present what I was directly told, however very soft stainless would machine easily but also wear faster.

I would certainly be interested in the topic of barrel wear. With that said, the variables, test methods and measurement techniques may result in a daunting task.

 

[foxguy]

Interesting timing as I have just completed some limited testing on this topic.

First, barrel break in depends highly on chamber finish. Some never really break in, some are ready in 20 rounds.

Second, I have just retested my own rifle. It was built last spring and now has near 7,000 rounds on it. It shot right at a 13.4mm (50M average for 4 groups of 10 shots) on the test range last spring with a certain lot of ammo. I shot it quite a bit then and found it very reliably shot that level of accuracy.

Last week, after the 7,000 rounds it still averaged about 13.4mm with that same ammo.

My experience with this one barrel is that there's no real change in 7,000 rounds. I'll continue to shoot, test, and report about it.

How Many rounds do you like to have down a Barrel before the Rifle is brought in for ammo testing?

 

[WOLFMAN2018]

 

[Ranger188]

Do you like to clean the bore down the bare metal every time and foul it, then shoot for score
or "season" it with 1000 rounds then only run 1 wet patch, 1 dry patch and good
to go.
I've talked to a few and get a different answer.
One top level BR shooter here that had Alex build a rimfire BR rifle for him said
he's tried both and didn't see much difference between the 2 methods.
Finding the right ammo is the key to small groups and will repeat over time.

 

[whiddengunworks]

Concerning the number of rounds we like to see before testing, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

The break in doesn't improve the accuracy very much at all. If it did, then when we started with a brand new barrel it would always select one of the last lots tested. We don't see this happen, and we don't see the later lots during the test consistently shoot tighter.

 

[dusterdave173]

Can't speak to anything but factory CZ --we have 5 MTR's One out of the batch was shooting one hole while zeroing the scope--it won the first 3 matches it was entered in. The other rifles started shooting well after a couple few hundred rounds and then it all came down to clean? Sort of clean? sparkle clean--we went through a spell where I decided dirty was good--what a waste of a couple months! But in my defense I was faked out by other factors
Now we clean hard with nylon brush / plenty of solvent and make sure carbon ring never has any chance to build up--3-4 foulers and they are ready to shoot their best with the ammo we have on hand--they get one dry patch after every card and if more than 4 cards they get wet patch then dried and on to the last two cards ( dry between them also )
Figuring out what they like and sticking to an exact routine based on the evidence and scores has helped us a lot.
Ammo is very hard to source at the moment--we seem to always be shooting less than the best we have had to date --when we do score a few bricks of killer ammo --it makes life EASY and all of the rifles show out
I think factory barrels are nothing like aftermarket match barrels and the discussion is two totally different topics
Great ammo stops all the guessing and just makes life better--a shame we can't buy all we need or want. I will say sourcing ammo AT A Match is the best way we have found--top guys sell a pile of ammo that does not meet their needs but may well be your best ever

 

[TRSR8]

I don't know about that, but I was told that a new barrel isn't broke in until 1000 rounds have been fired thru it and it will start to shoot smaller. All interesting. I'm looking forward to seeing additional comments in regards to bore changes....

Barrels” usually” don’t require break in, chambers do primarily as to how fast they build fouling.
Lilja seems to be contrary to that, many simply get better with time and I’d guess plenty of guys give up on them far too early.
The best barrels are usually ID ‘d right from the get go and unless damaged, stay good for their useful life.
All that said, the selection and availability of top flight ammo is making it tough all around, especially for newer guys, many of which, I dare say, may have never been lucky enough to see the difference.
All that said, Tony is pretty accurate although he has also been around long enough to own/shoot ammo that would be universally rated as “ killer” in any gun with a great barrel, currently easier said than done.

 

[TRSR8]

Do you like to clean the bore down the bare metal every time and foul it, then shoot for score
or "season" it with 1000 rounds then only run 1 wet patch, 1 dry patch and good
to go.
I've talked to a few and get a different answer.
One top level BR shooter here that had Alex build a rimfire BR rifle for him said
he's tried both and didn't see much difference between the 2 methods.
Finding the right ammo is the key to small groups and will repeat over time.

I dare say the majority of experienced match shooter clean their guns regularly, often with a good bronze brush and solvent.
Going to a match to see first hand beats the hell out of “ I know a guy”.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have a few thoughts to throw into the discussion.

First, I believe that with today's taper lapped barrels it is often mentioned that it takes about 1000 rounds to "break in". I think if any change occurs, its in the chamber leade area and not the balance of the barrel itself.

I have had polar opposite results with the "break in" on new barrels. The first new barrel was installed on by Karl Kenyon and it shot incredible right out of the gate with no change over it's competitive lifespan. Another subsequent barrel that performed just as well (installed by another 'smith) did take several bricks of ammo to reach the peak of it's performance. With that said, the "change" was very slight.

Second, as for "seeing" a change after 2500 rounds, I would have to ask this level of "change" and if this is not just a case of measurement error or are the results in the area of white noise of lot shot to shot variation. The test set up to see such a change would definitely have to effectively exclude human and environmental factors and the measurement techniques would also come into play.

Finally, I had a discussion with one of our Olympic champions several years ago about the barrels she was using. She was using an Anschutz 20xx series action and had a collection of barrels from Lilja that she rotated for training, matches and international level matches. She noted that the accuracy of the barrels had changed over several sets and that the last few were degrading notably after 17-20k rounds. Apparently, she was told that a softer steel was being used and that was causing the faster degradation. I can only present what I was directly told, however very soft stainless would machine easily but also wear faster.

I would certainly be interested in the topic of barrel wear. With that said, the variables, test methods and measurement techniques may result in a daunting task.

Id have to ask more details. I do his cf work but not his rf work so I dont know how throats are lapped or anything else. I would like to know if he experiances the same thing with a barrel I cut and lapped. That would tell me if its the troat or bore.

 

[TRSR8]

Id have to ask more details. I do his cf work but not his rf work so I dont know how throats are lapped or anything else. I would like to know if he experiances the same thing with a barrel I cut and lapped. That would tell me if its the troat or bore.

Last I heard Lilja uses the same steel as everybody else….416R. Now….over the years since Crucible stopped making 416 series sourcing has been all over the place , here, EU, etc.and over the years, steel lots could vary a bunch.
Relative to you’re question however, some of the best RFBR guys will do a post chamber lapping, usually with indexing of the lap but exact details are elusive given it is the “ secret sauce” of the final touches. A major objective is slowing the rate of carbon/ lead buildup.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Last I heard Lilja uses the same steel as everybody else….416R. Now….over the years since Crucible stopped making 416 series sourcing has been all over the place , here, EU, etc.and over the years, steel lots could vary a bunch.
Relative to you’re question however, some of the best RFBR guys will do a post chamber lapping, usually with indexing of the lap but exact details are elusive given it is the “ secret sauce” of the final touches. A major objective is slowing the rate of carbon/ lead buildup.

I have my own way of lapping the throat. Its the same way you'd lap the barrel. No idea how others do it, I just came up with my method based off of past experiance with cf throats and my main goal was to maintain the sharpness of the lead. Lilja is one of the barrels i will be taking to test. The others are Mullerworks and Bartlien.

 

[TRSR8]

I have my own way of lapping the throat. Its the same way you'd lap the barrel. No idea how others do it, I just came up with my method based off of past experiance with cf throats and my main goal was to maintain the sharpness of the lead. Lilja is one of the barrels i will be taking to test. The others are Mullerworks and Bartlien.

Be interested to hear how the Bartlien shakes out . So many have felt a cut barrel is a no bueno so not a bunch out there in the BR universe.
Be interested to see if they ever do a RF 5R with a little gain. Wouldn't that be interesting?

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have used a couple and they shoot small. These are 5 groove conventionals with gain

 

[TRSR8]

I have used a couple and they shoot small. These are 5 groove conventionals with gain

How much gain? Just starting in with a 6mm gain from them.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

.2". I switched to the gains in cf probably 6 years ago have no intention of going back.