Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo? UPDATE 12/8/2013 - Problem Found

[Phil3]

I tried closing the bolt on my Howa 223 with Hornady 55 grain SP factory ammo. Bolt moves maybe a third of the way and becomes tight very quickly and immovable. Tried about 5 rounds and all pretty much the same. Measured case head to shoulder and found compared to other factory ammo, the Hornady is on average, roughly .007" longr from head to shoulder datum line. I find it hard to believe that factory ammo will not chamber in a factory gun, but... I do see a fine tiny scratches around the edge of the case body and shoulder. PMC Bronze ammo chambers fine. I have cleaned the gun, but maybe some piece of debris is in the chamber. Other ideas?

Phil

UPDATE 12/8/2013

I forgot that I had a Wilson Case Gauge, that would quickly tell me whether the Hornady 223 factory ammo I had was within SAAMI specs. So, pulled out the gauge and tested the Hornady ammo that would not chamber. They all fail. All sit above the top level of the gauge. A small steel ruler set across the top level of the gauge rocks on the case head and will not sit across both side of the Wilson gauge. Clearly, the Hornady ammo is out of spec. Other factory ammo I have easily fits within the Wilson gauge, and it chambers just fine.

 

[Nomad47]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

Too bad you didn't buy a Savage. You could have done a little tweak to the headspace and got them chambered.

 

[jonbearman]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

Phil,did you have the barrel replaced? I am thinking that the reciever got tweaked.

 

[Phil3]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

Factory action and barrel bought together. No barrel replacement. Rifle never been fired. - Phil

 

[gaboon]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

Check with a different manufacturer ammo. A guy at the range brought a 7mm to test. He was using Hornandy ammo. The same thing happened. Lucky the range had some ammo. We put the new ammo in and no problems. We put the two ammo next side by side. You could see the Hornandy shoulder wasnt sized down enough. Also it was the super performance ammo.

 

[tisme]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

I remember a long time ago a guy in our local club had the same problem and it turned out to be a screw in the rail being too long and just touching the bolt as it closed. Not sure how it let the bolt close when no ammo was in it my memory fails me. Any how it might help.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

Too bad you didn't buy a Savage. You could have done a little tweak to the headspace and got them chambered.

Bill, not a good idea to make a gun out of spec to meet out of spec ammo, it would create excessive headspace with other ammo and will be potentially dangerous.

 

[Ggmac]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

Is it 223 or 5.56 Nato?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

Too bad you didn't buy a Savage. You could have done a little tweak to the headspace and got them chambered.

Bill, not a good idea to make a gun out of spec to meet out of spec ammo, it would create excessive headspace with other ammo and will be potentially dangerous.

Eric, while new brass generally runs small, there is actually an overlap of about .003" between SAAMI minimum chamber(1.4636"), and SAAMI maximum cartridge headspace length(1.4666"), making it possible for both gun and ammo to be within SAAMI specs but not chamber the cartridge. These numbers apply to .223 Remington.


I'd have the headspace checked. If it's good, either discuss the issue with the ammo or gun maker, or both....or just shoot something else in it. If it's short, take it up with Legacy Sports, the importer of Howa.


I had a Howa several years ago that shot poorly from day one. At the time, Howa included paperwork stating, in big red letters, I might add, that the gun had no warranty. With warranties comes a hightened liability. Long story short...Howa(Legacy) replaced the rifle in short order and the service was very good.


That's been several years ago, but I'd be confident in saying that Howa will stand good if the gun has a problem.--Mike

 

[Phil3]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

Is it 223 or 5.56 Nato?

Good question. The Howa barrel says 223 and the ammo also says "223 Rem 55 gr SP". Hornady #80255.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/366197/hornady-training-ammunition-223-remington-55-grain-soft-point-box-of-50

My box does NOT say "BRASS TRAINING".

Phil

 

[jonbearman]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

I would start measuring known good cases that fit your rifle and then measure the hornady.They more than likely have a problem they are unaware of from production. You didnt just put this action in a new stock and the front screw is proud near the locking lugs(abutments) and it is causing some binding.

 

[BoydAllen]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

I would use a headspace gauge to check the rifle, and the ammo with it and a comparator like what Hornady calls their headspace gauge (which it is not). If the rifle passes, and the ammo is longer than it should be, I would call Hornady.

 

[Phil3]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

I would start measuring known good cases that fit your rifle and then measure the hornady.They more than likely have a problem they are unaware of from production. You didnt just put this action in a new stock and the front screw is proud near the locking lugs(abutments) and it is causing some binding.

I measured some PMC Bronze factory ammo as well as the problematic Hornady. Both are rather inconsistent in shoulder setback, but on average, the Hornady is set forward about .007" more than the PMC. The PMC chambers fine.

The barreled action was installed and bedded into an aftermarket stock. I backed off the front screw several turns, but the Hornady still is a problem.

I took one round of the Hornady and slowly closed the bolt on it with my AR-15. I tried to close the bolt gently on the AR so I would not jam a case in the gun. This was not working, but the case would not fall out of the barrel. So, I locked the bolt back and tapped the stock on the ground hoping the case would fall out. Well, the bolt released (guess I did not have it locked back well enough), and the bolt flew forward. Now the case really is in there. I pulled the bolt back and the extractor removed it without trouble. The AR bolt did lock up. Either the AR chamber is looser and it went it, and/or the bolt velocity and force was enough to force it in.

Next, I put that same Hornady round into the Howa. It chambers! It locks up like a bank vault. I don't think that case could be a micron longer and still fit. The AR uses a minimum SAAMI spec 223 chamber Krieger barrel.

I doubt I will use the Hornady ammo. The case that closed in the AR is about .006" shorter than the other Hornady ammo.

Phil

 

[Nomad47]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

Too bad you didn't buy a Savage. You could have done a little tweak to the headspace and got them chambered.

Bill, not a good idea to make a gun out of spec to meet out of spec ammo, it would create excessive headspace with other ammo and will be potentially dangerous.

Erik, the winks were there because I was just yanking his chain from a previous post he made concerning Savages.
I'm well aware of the consequences of creating too much headspace.

 

[CatShooter]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

Phil... it might be a good idea to get a Redding "Small Base Body Die."

They will resolve a multitude of problems, and they are not expensive.

 

[effendude]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

Phil... it might be a good idea to get a Redding "Small Base Body Die."

They will resolve a multitude of problems, and they are not expensive.

How in the world is a small base die going to help with the Hornady factory ammo issue?

 

[CatShooter]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

Phil... it might be a good idea to get a Redding "Small Base Body Die."

They will resolve a multitude of problems, and they are not expensive.

How in the world is a small base die going to help with the Hornady factory ammo issue?

Because (in the world) it will take any round, factory or reload, to minimum body and minimum headspace! Sometimes the headspace is too long, and some times the body diameter is too phat!!

Three years ago, I re-opened a failed and closed ammunition company and reclaimed 1,600 pounds (~80,000 rounds) of 223 that was made with longer than spec headspace, that had been returned to the maker, by Stag Arms.

I used two Small Based Body Dies, two RockChucker presses, and two gorillas with big arms.

 

[jamesh]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

A couple years ago I had the exact same issue with bunch of 223 Hornady ammo (as I recall the carton they came in was labeled blems) and bumped the shoulder back to spec. with a bushing die with the bushing removed, just like alf suggested above.

 

[Raythemanroe]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

That sucks, Hornady brass is pretty good usually..

 

[boltman223]

Re: Bolt Won't Close on Factory Ammo?

I'm curious to see what a fired case measures.