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Body Die Sizing

The only thing I do not get are people who think they are the only ones who know how to reload.

And a 55,000 psi .223/5.56 case isn't "effeminate" with the proper shoulder bump.

Fired length

headspacegauge005_zps20685e73.jpg


And the same case with .003 shoulder bump.

headspacegauge004_zps4465b7bc.jpg


And the last time you "experts" got on your high horses the moderator deleted the posting. ;)

So keep up the good work. ::)
 
They are two exclusive acts, so actually it wouldn't matter which you do first.

However if you are sizing properly, you should be measuring the bump, and you have to either knock the primer out or reseat it to get an accurate measurement on the bump.
 
So I do not completely understand what I have happening, it seems as though each case chambers with just a little different pressure to close the bolt (this is after trimmed, cleaned, neck sized, and loaded). What could this be? things are .001 - .002 as far as concentricity goes. I just don't get it..

maybe it doesn't even matter if they chamber different? I would think it would. Using all high quality equipment as well.

Any ideas?
 
welscher663, We need a lot more info. What caliber , what brass, how many times fired, what dies? What is the rifle being used for? dedogs
 
What you have observed is that cases do not all become tight at the same rate, even if their quality, and the equipment are good, and all of the loads that were fired are the same. In my experience, if one has an accurate rifle that has the potential to shoot small groups mixing cases that have differences in bolt close feel in the same group will degrade accuracy. That is the reason that neck sizing has been largely abandoned by target shooters, in favor of FL dies that are a close match for their rifles' chambers. In the case of someone who wants to have the best possible ammunition for a factory chamber, using cases with unturned case necks, a number of shooters have reported excellent results by sizing necks with a Lee collet die, and sizing the rest of the case with a body die, as a two step process, done every loading. The trick is in setting the body properly for shoulder bump. In order to do this, you can use your tightest fired case that has only been neck sized for the last few firings. After removing its primer, or reseating it well below the case head, you can use it as a reference for setting the die. The other requirement is a tool with which to measure from cases' datum lines on their shoulders to their heads. For this task I prefer what Hornady has mislabeled their headspace gauge. It is quite useful, but rather than being a true headspace gauge, it is a shoulder location comparator.
 
How are you adjusting the FL die? Are you using a bump gauge to measure EACH case after sizing? This is what Boyd and I are trying to convey.......the FL die setting is not a set it once and forget it deal......you have to adjust the die setting until each piece of brass has the same bump gauge reading. This is why Skip's die shims, and tools such as the JLC ratchet adjuster and PMA's Micro Die Adjuster were developed.
 
welscher663 said:
So I do not completely understand what I have happening, it seems as though each case chambers with just a little different pressure to close the bolt (this is after trimmed, cleaned, neck sized, and loaded). What could this be? things are .001 - .002 as far as concentricity goes. I just don't get it..

maybe it doesn't even matter if they chamber different? I would think it would. Using all high quality equipment as well.

Any ideas?
The shell holder must be in full contact with the FL die. To control shoulder bump -Redding competition shell holder set.
 
243winxb said:
welscher663 said:
So I do not completely understand what I have happening, it seems as though each case chambers with just a little different pressure to close the bolt (this is after trimmed, cleaned, neck sized, and loaded). What could this be? things are .001 - .002 as far as concentricity goes. I just don't get it..

maybe it doesn't even matter if they chamber different? I would think it would. Using all high quality equipment as well.

Any ideas?
The shell holder must be in full contact with the FL die. To control shoulder bump -Redding competition shell holder set.

Let's stick to facts lol.... Your statement tells me that prior to a company making shell holders with differing heights that you had no way of accurately controlling bump??

I use a PMA adj. lock ring on a couple calibers where the ram is not in contact with the die... I'll bet your lunch money the amount of bump I get this way is VERY much under control. And prior to using the lock ring I had ways to control it without these shell holders , it's just a faster way of working in my case.
 
welscher663 said:
So I just got a body die to cope with some cases chambering hard. I have not used one of these before and was wanting a little insight on it. When I go to run brass thru them, do I first need to run them thru a neck sizer to knock out the primer? or can I run them thru the body die with the primer still in place and then neck size?

Thanks in advance!

welscher663

Do you have a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge?

And do you have a runout gauge?

And I can tell you I get the worst runout readings using the Forster/bushing shoulder bump kit. And I get the least amount of runout using Forster full length dies with the high mounted expander button.

dies003_zpsf9af9a52.jpg


IMG_2141_zps77852ff6.jpg
 
Just a thought...when the extractor slides over the rim, that can give the illusion of the case chambering hard if it is a tight fit, when reality is some cases have a slightly thicker rim, or it has worn down in some places and when that side hits the extractor the bolt closes easier.

I chased this with a Remington 700 one time. I was probably on the dangerous edge of bumping the case too short before someone suggest the extractor as the problem.

Take a look at the rims...if they are chewed up that could be it.
 
BoydAllen said:
What you have observed is that cases do not all become tight at the same rate, even if their quality, and the equipment are good, and all of the loads that were fired are the same. In my experience, if one has an accurate rifle that has the potential to shoot small groups mixing cases that have differences in bolt close feel in the same group will degrade accuracy. That is the reason that neck sizing has been largely abandoned by target shooters, in favor of FL dies that are a close match for their rifles' chambers. In the case of someone who wants to have the best possible ammunition for a factory chamber, using cases with unturned case necks, a number of shooters have reported excellent results by sizing necks with a Lee collet die, and sizing the rest of the case with a body die, as a two step process, done every loading. The trick is in setting the body properly for shoulder bump. In order to do this, you can use your tightest fired case that has only been neck sized for the last few firings. After removing its primer, or reseating it well below the case head, you can use it as a reference for setting the die. The other requirement is a tool with which to measure from cases' datum lines on their shoulders to their heads. For this task I prefer what Hornady has mislabeled their headspace gauge. It is quite useful, but rather than being a true headspace gauge, it is a shoulder location comparator.
That's exactly what I do. The only difference is use of RCBS precision mic to check the amount of shoulder's bump.
 
welscher663 said:
So I do not completely understand what I have happening, it seems as though each case chambers with just a little different pressure to close the bolt (this is after trimmed, cleaned, neck sized, and loaded). What could this be? things are .001 - .002 as far as concentricity goes. I just don't get it..

If I may, get past all that and tell us how your loads are grouping downrange. I am aware of your concern and yet I too "FEEL" that the bolt closes SLIGHTLY differently from cartridge to cartridge. And tha'ts with a runout of .0005 - .0015. I am also aware that my FL die bump IS NOT EXACTLY the same from casing to casing when measuring and may have a variance . .0005 to .001, which I suspect is part of the issue. All I'm really concerned about is how does all that relate to what my target looks like after shooting a string. And no matter how anal I get and try to be perfect from casing to casing IN EVERY ASPECT, we are dealing with the imperfections of reloading components that are CLOSE, but not perfect. And therein lies the challenge, that if over thought, will drive you nuts. I know because no matter how hard I try, they drive me up a wall when my target tells me something ain't right. Just my thoughts.

Alex
 
3 pages and we haven't gotten anywhere. So......It would be helpful to know the following:
* Type of rifle?
* Factory or custom chamber?
*Type of FL die?
* Type of brass? # times fired? All brass was new when first fired in this gun and dedicated to this gun only?
* Have you verified primers are seated below case head?
* Verified jam length and have sufficient bullet jump to preclude that unsorted bullets are not randomly engraving in the rifling?
 
So I think I should verify that I am by no means a professional at this, but have had some grouping luck with the rifle already. I've shot some great 100 yd. groups in testing (hopefully will be able to attach pictures) and only shot two 300 yd groups with it so far, which were like 2" with very unfavorable conditions.

So here is the breakdown

Gun: Savage LRPV 6mm NORMA BR 1 in 8 twist
Neck die: Redding competition bushing neck sizer
Body die: Redding body die
Shell holder is RCBS

I set the body die up as the instructions said in the package, I was not aware that there is a certain amount of "bump" that needed to be done. Honestly I was of the thinking that if it bumps each case the same (assuming not very much) it would be just fine. I don't believe I have a tool to measure the shoulder bump I don't think? I'm not so familiar with that exactly this is. From what I understood while ordering the body die was that it is the FL sizer without the neck sizing (so knowing I have the neck sizer) I figured just getting the body die would save me a few bucks from buying the FL bushing die.

But if I'm understanding most of you right, I should be using a FL bushing sizer die?
 
Forgot to mention..

Lapua brass dedicated to this gun only, fired 2-3 times each.

Seating .015 off the lands, and all bullets are sorted in different bunches, primers are defiantly seated below case head
 
Yes, a FL die will solve a lot of problems. Plus you need the Hornady H/S tool as Big Ed pictured earlier to know where to start from. Once you determine your cartridge H/S length, I would bump the shoulder back 0.002" more. Sell that neck sizer and body die to off-set the cost.....and you really don't need the "competition" die. Remember K.I.S.S.
 
LHSmith said:
Yes, a FL die will solve a lot of problems. Plus you need the Hornady H/S tool as Big Ed pictured earlier to know where to start from. Once you determine your cartridge H/S length, I would bump the shoulder back 0.002" more. Sell that neck sizer and body die to off-set the cost.....and you really don't need the "competition" die. Remember K.I.S.S.

A body die does the same thing as a F/L die....... he does NOT need one
In combination, his body die will size the body and set the shoulder; and the neck die will set the neck.
It is a very good way to go at it; better then many f/l dies can produce.
Donovan
 
BoydAllen said:
You need to pay attention to shoulder bump when you set a body die, just like you would with a FL die. If you take the neck bushing out of a bushing FL die, what you are left with sizes the same parts of the case as a body die.

Boyd,
When using a body die or a FL die with the neck bushing removed, what measurable impact does do these dies have on the life of the brass? My definition of life is the # of times the brass is still usable in competition. IOW, does the body die significantly shorten the life of the brass?
Ben
 
I think that is important that you understand why one should avoid pushing case shoulders back (bumping) excessively. When a rimless cartridge is fired, the force of the firing pin strike, and slightly after that of the primer going off push the case forward in the chamber until the chamber shoulder stops it. This creates a momentary gap between the bolt face and the case head. As the pressure rises from the burning of the powder, the sides of the case body grip the chamber holding the case in this forward position, and with normal pressure loads, at some point the pressure is enough that the case stretches, just in front of where the solid head begins, back to the bolt face, very slightly thinning the case in a narrow band in this area. The first time that a case is fired, this may amount to a stretch of say .006 or so, but as a one time event, the loss of thickness is not a problem, unless it is repeated over and over, because the case is sized incorrectly, bumping the shoulder back too far each time. If this happens, the case will be gradually thinned, first showing a bright line in the area that is becoming thinner, and developing an indentation on the inside. This is called incipient separation. Cases that have this condition should be discarded. If the incorrect process is continued beyond that point, cases will crack, and their head separate from the body of the case, leaking gas, and leaving the case in the chamber with its head on the bolt face when the bolt is opened. There is some potential for the shooter being injured in an extreme case, but I have not seen this. Getting back to the incipient separation, the internal groove that accompanies it can be detected by straightening out a paper clip, putting a short right angle bend near one end, and pulling the tip up the inside of the case from the bottom. If a groove has formed it will be felt just off of the bottom.
If on the other hand the FL or body die is set properly, and the shoulder not pushed back (bumped) excessively, the stretching of the brass will be minimal, and cases will not be thinned near their heads excessively, resulting in long case life, usually to the point that necks will start to split from repeated sizings and firings, but if the chamber is not too big in that area, and the sizing process properly controlled, this may not be an issue for a great number of rounds.

You seem to have gotten the impression that you need to get a bushing FL die. While it will eliminate the need to use two steps (neck and body dies) when you size, beyond that, there is no advantage. You can get the same result with what you have. What you do need is a tool to measure shoulder bump, and to learn how to use that tool properly. Once you have one in hand, I suggest that you return to this forum for some coaching as to how that is best done. There are a few things that may not be obvious to the first time user.
 
I was posting while you wrote your last question. The effect of FL or body sizing on brass life is directly related to the match between the die's dimensions and that of the chamber. The greater the difference, the more the case will be lengthened during from sizing, as the brass from the body's reduction in diameter is forced into the case neck, lengthening the case. With a die that is closely matched to the chamber, such as is commonly use for competition (speaking of bolt actions here) and properly controlled shoulder bump (I use .001) cases may be used for a great number of firings, and as I said above, the usual place that they fail will be that their necks will crack, unless cases are annealed, but this may not happen for a great number of firings if the chamber is such that necks are not worked excessively by firing and sizing. In order to get a fix on what your particular body or FL die is doing, I suggest that you measure your cases after they are fired, and then again after they are sized, checking the diameters just above the extractor groove, where you can see the end of the chamber by looking at the surface finish, and also at the shoulder, and neck. It is also good to measure necks of loaded rounds, over the part of the seated bullet shank that is largest in diameter. You can use a dial caliper for this, and I would measure several cases.
 

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