Boat Tail Bullets?

[CanusLatransSnpr]

Hey all! I have been reloading for a little while now and granted I'm limited in my scope, just .22-250 and .243 Win, I can't get boat tail bullets to shoot "consistently" well at all. I have had decent luck with flat base bullets but, boat tails not so good. I have tried 55 gr Sierra Blitzkings in .224, 55 gr. Nosler BT in .224, 65 gr. VMax in .243, 55, 70, and 80 gr. Nosler BT in .243 and have not had "consistent" groups with any of these. Was wondering if anyone else has had this problem and if they did, what did you do to get boat tails to shoot well? Thanks!

Mike

 

[Preacher]

Seems to me that the BT's dont start to behave until they are out at least 300 yards, unlike a FB bullet...

 

[Bill Edwards]

I don't think that's real uncommon. It seems like it takes boat tails, especially the smaller ones,a while to stabilize. I have better luck w/ flat base bullets up to 250 yd.s or so.

 

[spclark]

Like Preacher said, longer distance helps with BT's.

In that BT's are pretty much ALL what's shot for anything beyond 300 yards, no matter the competition format, we need more info (about your shooting needs and typical practices) before making suggestions.

 

[CanusLatransSnpr]

Thanks for the feed back guys! I glad that what I'm experiencing isn't uncommon. I'm a varmint shooter is all, no competition for me. Atleast not yet anyways. My main targets are woodchucks, crows, and coyotes, with the occasional squirrel thrown in the mix. I do load development by shooting 3 shot groups at 100 yds. with one fouler shot prior to the group being shot. Most of my shooting, currently, is 350 yds. and less. I like that the boat tails shoot a bit flatter and buck the wind better than the flat based counterparts. What kind of groups should I expect at 100 yds.? Maybe I'm too picky but, I find .5 MOA unacceptable at 100 yds. I'm used to shooting in the high .2's to low .3's with the flat based bullets. Thanks!

Mike

 

[CanusLatransSnpr]

My mistake! I shoot with a Caldwell Rock front rest and a rear bag for load development. By the way, I haven't ruled myself out as being the culprit in some of the instances of bad groups !

Mike

 

[K0na_stinky]

Seems to me that the BT's dont start to behave until they are out at least 300 yards, unlike a FB bullet...

Why is that? How does that work? You would think that if they arn't grouping well at 100 yards they well continue to not group well the further you get away.

 

[CanusLatransSnpr]

My sentiments exactly K0na! Maybe I have to try load development with the boat tails at farther distances?

Mike

 

[Greg110]

Canus,
Back to your original question and comment. I too shoot chucks, and mostly under 300, and with an AR type rifle, 1/9 twist, .223 Rem. My best bullet to date is the 60gr flat base V-Max. I have experienced your same issues. I don't know why the 60gr BlitzKings don't shoot so straight for me, they just don't.

 

[bozo699]

Mike,
Those old men shooting short range BR have two things most of us don't have,.......time and money. All they do is buy the best of everything and shoot,shoot,shoot,.... They show up to the matches in &300,000 motor homes, and when there not @ a match somewhere what are they doing?.... practicing somewhere.
They have already done all the ground work for you as they have over the last 50 years or so tried every bullet made and many more that are no longer made, and there ALL shooting fb bullets. If I were you I wouldn't try bucking the known to work system if all your after is 250 yards. I usually only use my 100 yard target for getting on paper then I go to 300-500 yards for all my initial load work and finish the load development @ the distance I will be shooting because I absolutely believe what Preacher said some of the BT bullets won't stabilize until 300 yards or so especially with the long vld style bullets. I have some .222 and .223s I use for shorter ranges 100-400 yard ground hogs and whatever and I haven't had any trouble stabilizing 40-55 grain BT bullets in any of them. I mostly use 50 grain v-max and usually can get them to shoot in the .200 range which I feel is plenty good enough for the application. If I wanted to shoot better than that I would go with a fb match bullet but they may not work as well for live varmints as they were designed for paper. Good luck with it mike
Wayne.

 

[people]

Some rifles just do not like some bullets, powders or even primers.

 

[243Mendoza]

..I like that the boat tails shoot a bit flatter and buck the wind better than the flat based counterparts. What kind of groups should I expect at 100 yds.? Maybe I'm too picky but, I find .5 MOA unacceptable at 100 yds. I'm used to shooting in the high .2's to low .3's with the flat based bullets. Thanks!

Mike, I only shoot boattails and I can easily get 5-shots groups under 1/2 moa and most times under 1/4moa with 155gr Palma bullets and 6.5 Lapua 139gr bullets at 100yds.

 

[bozo699]

I do not know if I would win any BR comps with them but who in BR wants some jerk shooting a 300Win Mag next to them anyway? .

I didn't realize I was a jerk, many other people I know are jerks as well as I have shot LR BR with a .300wm and sat beside others shooting even bigger rifles. Anyway that's neither here nor there you are right about one thing every gun is different, you just have to find what it likes
JERK

 

[CanusLatransSnpr]

Thanks for all the feed back guys!

Steve, I can get them to shoot under 1/2 moa but, they won't shoot that consistently. It very well could be me? Its just frustrating as hell to shoot 2 shots in almost the same hole and then have a flyer that just shoots the group all to hell.

Wayne, I hear ya! Unfortunately, 300 yds. is the farthest I can shoot with where I have to target shoot right now. May have to try some load development at that range.

People, in my opinion speer is making one of the best flat base bullets out there for the money. I don't mind paying $20.00 a box for 70 gr. TNTs vs. $30.00 a box for 69 gr. Berger match varmints. Undoubtedly the Bergers will shoot better but, that crow or ground hog won't know the difference. Unless I miss !

Mike

 

[6BRinNZ]

Mike - is it even worth the effort for shots up to 350 yrds?

The following is from the berger balistics app...I made the assumption that they would both shoot same MV...

Also have a read of Brian litzs book, it explains lots about bullets and their behaviours and goes into a bit of detail around the - "when bullets stabilise" thing.....

Anyways my apologies if this is off track for ya.

80 Grain Nosler BT - Varmint

+----------------------------- Program Inputs ---------------------------------+
| |
+---- Bullet Inputs -----+----Atmosphere Inputs ----+-------Sight Inputs ------+
| Caliber: 0.243 inches | Temperature: 59 degrees | Sight Height: 1.5 inches |
| Weight: 80 grains | Pressure: 29.92 inHg | Zero Range: 100 yards |
| G7 BC: .163 lb/in^2 | Humidity: 0 % | Look Angle: 0 degrees |
| G7 Form Factor: 1.187 | Density: 0.07647 lb/ft^3 | |
| MZL Velocity: 3100 fps| Wind Speed: 10 mph | |
| | Wind Direction: 3 O'clock| |
+------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+


+----------------------------- Program Output ---------------------------------+
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory TOF Drift
(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (MOA) (sec) (MOA)
0 3100 1707 0.00 0.0000 0.00
10 3070 1674 -11.22 0.0097 -0.08
20 3040 1641 -4.23 0.0195 -0.16
30 3010 1609 -2.02 0.0295 -0.25
40 2980 1577 -1.01 0.0395 -0.33
50 2950 1546 -0.48 0.0496 -0.41
60 2920 1515 -0.19 0.0598 -0.50
70 2891 1485 -0.03 0.0701 -0.58
80 2862 1455 0.03 0.0806 -0.67
90 2832 1425 0.04 0.0911 -0.75
100 2803 1396 -0.00 0.1018 -0.84
110 2775 1367 -0.07 0.1125 -0.93
120 2746 1339 -0.16 0.1234 -1.02
130 2717 1311 -0.27 0.1344 -1.11
140 2689 1284 -0.40 0.1455 -1.20
150 2660 1257 -0.55 0.1567 -1.30
160 2632 1231 -0.70 0.1680 -1.39
170 2604 1205 -0.86 0.1795 -1.48
180 2577 1179 -1.04 0.1911 -1.58
190 2549 1154 -1.22 0.2028 -1.68
200 2521 1129 -1.40 0.2146 -1.77
210 2494 1105 -1.60 0.2266 -1.87
220 2467 1081 -1.80 0.2387 -1.97
230 2440 1058 -2.01 0.2509 -2.07
240 2413 1035 -2.22 0.2632 -2.17
250 2387 1012 -2.44 0.2757 -2.28
260 2360 989 -2.67 0.2884 -2.38
270 2334 968 -2.90 0.3012 -2.49
280 2308 946 -3.13 0.3141 -2.59
290 2282 925 -3.38 0.3272 -2.70
300 2256 904 -3.62 0.3404 -2.81
310 2230 884 -3.87 0.3538 -2.92
320 2205 864 -4.13 0.3673 -3.03
330 2180 844 -4.39 0.3810 -3.14
340 2155 825 -4.66 0.3948 -3.26


Berger 80 grain varmint flat base


+----------------------------- Program Inputs ---------------------------------+
| |
+---- Bullet Inputs -----+----Atmosphere Inputs ----+-------Sight Inputs ------+
| Caliber: 0.243 inches | Temperature: 59 degrees | Sight Height: 1.5 inches |
| Weight: 80 grains | Pressure: 29.92 inHg | Zero Range: 100 yards |
| G1 BC: .306 lb/in^2 | Humidity: 0 % | Look Angle: 0 degrees |
| G1 Form Factor: 0.632 | Density: 0.07647 lb/ft^3 | |
| MZL Velocity: 3100 fps| Wind Speed: 10 mph | |
| | Wind Direction: 3 O'clock| |
+------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+


+----------------------------- Program Output ---------------------------------+
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory TOF Drift
(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (MOA) (sec) (MOA)
0 3100 1707 0.00 0.0000 0.00
10 3067 1671 -11.21 0.0097 -0.09
20 3034 1635 -4.22 0.0196 -0.18
30 3001 1600 -2.01 0.0295 -0.27
40 2969 1566 -1.00 0.0396 -0.36
50 2937 1532 -0.47 0.0497 -0.45
60 2905 1499 -0.18 0.0600 -0.54
70 2873 1466 -0.03 0.0704 -0.64
80 2842 1435 0.04 0.0809 -0.73
90 2811 1403 0.04 0.0915 -0.82
100 2780 1373 -0.00 0.1022 -0.92
110 2749 1343 -0.07 0.1131 -1.02
120 2719 1313 -0.17 0.1240 -1.11
130 2689 1284 -0.28 0.1351 -1.21
140 2658 1255 -0.41 0.1464 -1.31
150 2629 1227 -0.56 0.1577 -1.41
160 2599 1200 -0.72 0.1692 -1.51
170 2569 1173 -0.89 0.1808 -1.61
180 2540 1146 -1.06 0.1925 -1.72
190 2511 1120 -1.25 0.2044 -1.82
200 2482 1094 -1.44 0.2164 -1.93
210 2454 1069 -1.64 0.2286 -2.03
220 2425 1045 -1.85 0.2409 -2.14
230 2397 1020 -2.06 0.2533 -2.25
240 2369 997 -2.28 0.2659 -2.36
250 2341 973 -2.51 0.2787 -2.47
260 2313 950 -2.74 0.2916 -2.59
270 2286 928 -2.98 0.3046 -2.70
280 2258 906 -3.22 0.3178 -2.82
290 2231 884 -3.47 0.3312 -2.93
300 2204 863 -3.73 0.3447 -3.05
310 2177 842 -3.99 0.3584 -3.17
320 2151 822 -4.25 0.3723 -3.29
330 2124 802 -4.53 0.3863 -3.41
340 2098 782 -4.80 0.4005 -3.54
350 2072 763 -5.09 0.4149 -3.66

 

[BoydAllen]

First of all, if anyone thinks that all short range benchrest shooters shoot flat base bullets, he is badly mistaken, and they are not by any means all rich, and retired, with lots of time to practice. Secondly, a long time ago, the first thing that I wrote that got published, (in Precision Shooting) was a letter in which I asked why some barrels don't seem to "like" BT bullets. Answers tended to be that due to the lower standards to which factory barrels are made, some have tight and loose spots that do not pair well with BTs. Personally, I got started shooting centerfire and reloading (Lee Loader)with a 788 Remington in .308 that liked nothing better than 168, and 190 grain SMKs. I think that in the case of factory barrels and chambers it is a matter of their individual "preference". As to BTs not shooting at shorter ranges, I have not found that to be the case, even with long bullets that require a fast twist. I have helped a friend work up loads for custom sporter weight rifles chambered in 7mmWSM and .338 Lapua. We did the load development at 100 yards with long high BC bullets. The groups were excellent. Of course even with muzzle brakes, shooter concentration becomes a big issue, given the recoil. My friend was up to the task, and took all of his non dangerous game kills were one shot. Also, almost all of the shooting that I did with that .308 was at 100 yards.

 

[bozo699]

First of all, if anyone thinks that all short range benchrest shooters shoot flat base bullets, he is badly mistaken, and they are not by any means all rich, and retired, with lots of time to practice. Secondly, a long time ago, the first thing that I wrote that got published, (in Precision Shooting) was a letter in which I asked why some barrels don't seem to "like" BT bullets. Answers tended to be that due to the lower standards to which factory barrels are made, some have tight and loose spots that do not pair well with BTs. Personally, I got started shooting centerfire and reloading (Lee Loader)with a 788 Remington in .308 that liked nothing better than 168, and 190 grain SMKs. I think that in the case of factory barrels and chambers it is a matter of their individual "preference". As to BTs not shooting at shorter ranges, I have not found that to be the case, even with long bullets that require a fast twist. I have helped a friend work up loads for custom sporter weight rifles chambered in 7mmWSM and .338 Lapua. We did the load development at 100 yards with long high BC bullets. The groups were excellent. Of course even with muzzle brakes, shooter concentration becomes a big issue, given the recoil. My friend was up to the task, and took all of his non dangerous game kills were one shot. Also, almost all of the shooting that I did with that .308 was at 100 yards.

Boyd,
I stand corrected and apologize for my bold statement.
Wayne.

 

[BoydAllen]

Wayne,
There is nothing to apologize for. What you wrote is probably a common misapprehension, and your doing so gave me a chance to address those issues. It's all good.
Boyd

 

[CanusLatransSnpr]

6BR, thanks for that insightful data! I have a "very" analytical mind, too much so actually, and I like to see tangible evidence of how something works. There isn't that much difference "ballistically" between the two bullets that I can see. However, I would still like to learn how to tune those darned BTs and get them to shoot !

Boyd, you have a valid point! Shooter concentration becomes paramount when it comes to load development and to be honest, some days I have it, and some days I don't! I try to do the best I can though!

Mike

 

[Martin S]

Why is that? How does that work? You would think that if they arn't grouping well at 100 yards they well continue to not group well the further you get away.

I've also thought about this. Can someone explain it?
Martin S