Blueprinting and accuracy improvement - any proof?

[BoydAllen]

Among the better Remington action massagers, sleeving bolts is common. The problem lies with those who make excuses and employ half measures. As to the ability of most shooters, when I let most shooters, who do not flinch, shoot one of my specialized bench rifles, on a day when the wind is easy, a group in the high twos to low threes is the usual result. How would anyone know what ones ability is without the proper tools to measure it with. With good equipment, cause and effect are much easier to see, and the road to becoming a better shooter becomes much shorter and straighter.

 

[Bob3700]

And if you put those 30 rifle in a room with 1000 monkeys would one of them eventually shoot a screamer group?

Maybe not.

 

[BoydAllen]

Doing a complete action job, to the highest level, requires recutting the threads. After that, factory barrels won't fit. Do you have any experience doing work on your own rifles? There have been some statements made on this thread that indicate some of the posters have a complete lack of personal experience with such things as bedding a factory rifle, and the difference in performance that it can produce...complete bench racers, as it were. The problem with having a serious discussion with those who despite having the opportunity to, have failed to school themselves by actually doing the thing that is being discussed, is that they are sometimes completely unaware that they are spouting complete drivel. Good luck with that.

 

[armorpl8]

For $30,000 we can do a test and find out.

30 rifles trued for a grand a piece...no wonder you are so worked up about rifle trueing. All you need is 30 grand to pull this off huh....who do I make the check out to?

 

[Tozguy]

Trouble is you wouldn't find out a dang thing that we don't already know.

 

[Robert]

Hi all,
I would not enter in this discussion pro and contra, only make an idiot comment and suggestion:

I have read a lot about trueing Remington actions. Considering only the question of barrel threads and face, I have difficulty to imagine that a firm like Remington does not have the means to, or does not use the necessary means to to make perfectly cut and square threads and surfaces…

Now, when threads are re-cut, I have always wondered why not recut them to accept an Helicoil insert. Inserts at 1.0625 x 16 tpi exist and, if well made and fitted, they are even better and accurate than original threads.. In many cases, of better finished profile tha many re-workers can made. This would at least re-establish the threads to original dimension.

FWIW
R.G.C

 

[Tozguy]

Mr. Sliver,
Your question is indeed revealing. It is perfectly logical to want to know the exact objective impact of the effort and money we spend. After all, how many of us could go through the expense of a university education without knowing exactly how much each individual course we take is going to contribute to our lifetime income.
Unfortunately, the science of shooting is rife with mystery about how our efforts and expenses are rewarded on an objective basis. Unlike fishermen who know exactly how many more fish they are going to catch with a carbon fiber rod versus a bamboo one, how much bigger the fish are going to be proportional to the increase the test of line they use and finally what specie of fish they will catch with a specific lure, shooters constantly face a black box of the unknown, the unproven, the unlogical and the untested. This situation means we never can be absolutely sure about anything we are doing except about how good it feels.

That might even explain why A. Einstein preferred to concentrate on quantum mechanics instead of the chemical/physical mystery going on in firearms. The universe that exists between the time you squeeze the trigger and the time the bullet leaves the muzzle, unencumbered by facts, truths and absolutes, leaves the imagination free to wander anywhere. Bewildered, many are simply happy to sow the wild seeds of accuracy everywhere they can and hope for the best. What is one shooter’s science is another shooter’s BS. Please consider this my contribution for today.

 

[moorepower]

Could someone PLEASE put a don't start reading this on this post! My God man if you don't believe anyone then don't friggin ask! PLease, Please, Please have a smith take apart a 700 action, measure it, send it back to Remington for warranty,"before they tell you they have a 2" 3 shot group standard" and by the way, don't pay the smith because he really did not do anything, did he? Then let everyone know how it worked out. ENTER THIS THREAD AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!

 

[kjcpoint]

Our shop is a remington warranty center. I called rem 3 months ago cause i had a new 7mm mag that shot 4 to 5 inch groups at 100yd. They told me to do whatever was necessary to get the gun to shoot.
I faced the action, surfaced ground the recoil lug, cut the internal lugs, and the rear bolt lugs(timing was good) and touched up the bolt face. Set the chamber ahead accordingly and index. The gun now shoots 3/4 in groups.
Since then we have done two .223's and a 300 win mag with good results. And charge rem 150 bucks for warranty work.

If it were a custom barrel we single point cut the receiver threads, cut the bolt raceway to .705 and either sleeve or use a kiff bolt. It works for us and our customers.

thanks,
kyle

 

[NateHaler]

Our shop is a remington warranty center. I called rem 3 months ago cause i had a new 7mm mag that shot 4 to 5 inch groups at 100yd. They told me to do whatever was necessary to get the gun to shoot.
I faced the action, surfaced ground the recoil lug, cut the internal lugs, and the rear bolt lugs(timing was good) and touched up the bolt face. Set the chamber ahead accordingly and index. The gun now shoots 3/4 in groups.

Kyle, you expect us to believe that truing an action, and leaving the factory barrel on, resulted in group size of 4-5" shrinking to 3/4"? I'm not buying it. I was born at night, but not last night. There is no way in H-E-double hockey sticks that action truing alone could yield that kind of improvement. No way.

New barrel, better loads, better shooter, I could buy. :-\

 

[skeetlee]

I have had several remington factory rifles that would shoot 3/4" groups. Just say-en!!

 

[butchlambert]

Nate, I'm going to have to agree with you on that.
Butch

 

[kjcpoint]

I can tell you if it was not working rem would replace that rifle. I will bed them and cut a new crown as well.
Make a call and see what reamers they are using on them factory guns? You would be surprised that some chamber work and a new crown can make an impact.
The .223 and the 300 did not shoot to the same degree but still shot better.
As a warranty center for a few gun companies we have seen some crazy stuff, like a barrel that wasn't even rifled.

 

[rsilvers]

Mr. Silvers,

Your missing a very big point to truing/blueprinting. That being the barrels can not be just screwed back on.......

I am not missing that point. It is just that would make it impossible to know if the blueprinting had an effect since you could never test it with the same barrel. So it is fine to go ahead and do that, but not if you are trying to prove that blueprinting an action works.

 

[BoydAllen]

If you look at an earlier post of mine, I gave an example of before and after with the same barrel. The aftermarket barrel was originally chambered by the same fellow, with the same reamer as when it was set back after the threads were fixed. This is mostly for those that came into this thread late, since you obviously are just looking to find any way you can to justify not having to spend the money that it would cost to know that an action is correct. The things that you are askiing about are common knowledge, even so you wish for others to expend effort and money to prove something in a manner that even you can understand. I doubt that there is enough money and time to accomplish such a feat, even if someone cared to do so. Do something for yourself for a change. You might learn something.

 

[rsilvers]

since you obviously are just looking to find any way you can to justify not having to spend the money that it would cost to know that an action is correct.

I am not sure how you got that idea. I spent the money on a Nesika action, an Anschutz, a Borden, an AI, 3 McMillan MCRTs, a Blauser, an SSG-3000, a Mk11Mod0, and a BAT - among others.

Back to topic. You say it is common knowledge, but yet you cannot give an example that proves it helps. Audiophiles say that they can hear the difference between speaker cables and yet they never can when tested. If one questions it, they pretend that 'everyone' knows you can tell the difference, and if you cannot, the problem is with you.

All you said in your example was that "it was a whole new rifle" and "He is very happy with the results." I cannot find the before/after results of your example - so it does not qualify as evidence.

If one took ten factory rifles and ten which had the actions processed, would one be able to tell which were which only through shooting them? It would seem you are saying obviously so. I am looking for an example which shows that to be the case.

Again, I am not saying it does not help - I just want to know the typical improvement. I just ordered a PTG Gen-2 system so I can test it myself.

 

[therifler]

i have been reading your post and all the responses. you offer a test to prove what helps and what does not . i believe i have a better test . what if we take a gun that we know is shooting very well and go in reverse . i will take the rifle apart and cut the threads off center than send it back to you and you can run your tests . than you can send it back to me if there is no change in accuracy and i will machine a lug .002 shorter on the bolt and you can lap it in and see if that makes a difference in accuracy . with you posting the results on this site for all those to see. we can keep doing this till you can tell us what works and what does not . i will do this work for free providing you pay for the shipping both ways . Oh and provide me with a gun you know that shoots very well . The Rifler

 

[rsilvers]

That is very smart - I think you did come up with the best way to do this.

Perhaps when my action truing system comes, I square it all up and document with a 30 round group the current precision, and then we grind the receiver face out of perpendicularity by some amount and shoot it again. Then I remove material on one lug so only one contacts, and shoot it a third time. Then I square it all up again, and shoot it a fourth time.

 

[therifler]

It certainly beats working with the unknown. if you know you have a rifle that shoots well you will certainly know at what stage it gets worst . glad i could be of some help . The Rifler
www.therifler.com

 

[BoydAllen]

What expenditure have you made toward answering your own question? Also, valid proof to whose standards? Why would anyone care what your opinion of an outcome was as long as he was satisfied with it? Each of our opinions is irrelevant, except to ourselves, and those who find them in some way enlightening. When you have actually done something besides gas, come back and tell us about the test you ran, and the results.