Black Powder Cartridges

[DHall_37]

Howdy, my friend and I are going to fix up his Swiss Vetterli and get it converted to CF. We have shells, bullets (44 magnum lead) and dies on the way, 10.4x38.

we want to load with black powder, however I’ve never used black powder and need some help.

I have one pound of Pyrodex 2F that would probably work the best. I know that black powder must be compressed or else you have a pipe bomb.

I also know that Pyrodex is a black powder substitute. Would 1F be better? I’ve also heard of Duplex powder? It’s like smokeless and black powder? There are also other brands like triple 7 and a Swiss brand too?

I also know that black powder is based on size, 1F being the largest and 4F the smallest. 4F being faster burning than 1F.

I might be a little over my head on this one so if y’all could straighten me out that would be much appreciated.

 

[Adam in WI]

How did you determine that a 44 mag bullet mould was appropriate? A quick search shows your 41 Swiss runs about .015" smaller bullet...

 

[DHall_37]

How did you determine that a 44 mag bullet mould was appropriate? A quick search shows your 41 Swiss runs about .015" smaller bullet...

Rifling was cut deep in those rifles and they used a Mine ball design (I probably spelled that wrong), it would blow out and engage the rifling. Those bullets run about .429 in diameter.

 

[Just Say Moe]

I would use Trail Boss. After cleaning my muzzleloader after using Pyrodex and 777 is enough for me to avoid black powder and substitutes at all costs!

 

[DHall_37]

I would use Trail Boss. After cleaning my muzzleloader after using Pyrodex and 777 is enough for me to avoid black powder and substitutes at all costs!

I would try trail boss and have looked into it, but it’s no where to be found at all! Even local stores are picked thin.

 

[Bill K]

I agree, for your safety and those around you. Work up loads with Trailboss.

Trailboss puts out information on how to work a load up for a given cartridge.

 

[DHall_37]

I agree, for your safety and those around you. Work up loads with Trailboss.

Trailboss puts out information on how to work a load up for a given cartridge.

I’ll go searching for some soon. What is unsafe about BP, I’d think that if it’s compressed it would be fine, but I’m no expert and it’s very dirty too.

 

[Bill K]

BP is not a unsafe powder ( do not read into my comment such) it is just requires more careful loading, by either volumn or weight/grains. Takes more time and effort to clean than Trailboss. It also requires more care and procedure in storing it, around a home/shop, per insurance purposes.
A little research will show you on storing and use of BP.

 

[DHall_37]

BP is not a unsafe powder ( do not read into my comment such) it is just requires more careful loading, by either volumn or weight/grains. Takes more time and effort to clean than Trailboss. It also requires more care and procedure in storing it, around a home/shop, per insurance purposes.
A little research will show you on storing and use of BP.

I just talked to my buddy and he wants to do the black powder. I’m just used to smokeless and specific weights for charges and such, black powder seems to be more forgiving on charge weight if compressed?

 

[lawman29]

Google Search

 

[std7mag]

Black powder, like Goex, is an actual explosive. Many shops in my area are not carrying it anymore due to the increased hazmat charges associated with having it shipped in.

I'm going to assume that the substitutes are not, otherwise Walmart wouldn't have a case of Pyrodex on the shelf in easy reach.

1F is large and usually used for cannons.
2F (ffg) is usually used for main charge of muskets, and a few pistols. The Dragoons, and Walker, namely.
3F (fffg) is usually used for pistol.
4F (ffffg) is very fine and usually used in the frizzen of flintlocks.

Note, black powder measured by volume, not weight.
So 60gr of 3F will have more granules and energy than 60gr of 2F.

There are a few black powder metallic cartridges still out there. Usually designated with caliber-powder charge.
45-70 and 30-30 for example.

 

[Paul Hilgedick]

At one time I had a 45-120 Sharps I shot with a duplex load. A duplex load uses a small amount of smokeless in the bottom of the case with black powder on top. I used SR4795 for the smokeless, however it is no longer made. I used 10% smokeless 90% black. The other problem with shooting black powder in a brass case is cleaning them. I would put the cases in vinegar for about 30 minutes, scrub with a brass brush then rinse in hot water.

 

[Gun Smith]

I used to shoot .45 Colt in a rifle and a revolver using a Duplex load. Very clean burning,
but still lots of smoke and smell.

 

[snert]

I think that link to cast boolits is the answer you need.

 

[SSL]

When dealing with black powder be sure to remember that static electricity can ignite it, as can the shearing effect of a steel powder measure. Only use brass drums or measures. Never plastic measures or funnels (static electricity).

 

[DHall_37]

All good stuff I’ve read so far, so is loading with Pyrodex 2F going to cause any over pressure issues? The case is not massive by any means, I think it will cap out around 45-50 grains and I’ll be pushing either a 250 gr or 310 bullet.

 

[Homerange]

Black powder, like Goex, is an actual explosive. Many shops in my area are not carrying it anymore due to the increased hazmat charges associated with having it shipped in.

I'm going to assume that the substitutes are not, otherwise Walmart wouldn't have a case of Pyrodex on the shelf in easy reach.

1F is large and usually used for cannons.
2F (ffg) is usually used for main charge of muskets, and a few pistols. The Dragoons, and Walker, namely.
3F (fffg) is usually used for pistol.
4F (ffffg) is very fine and usually used in the frizzen of flintlocks.

Note, black powder measured by volume, not weight.
So 60gr of 3F will have more granules and energy than 60gr of 2F.

There are a few black powder metallic cartridges still out there. Usually designated with caliber-powder charge.
45-70 and 30-30 for example.

The manufacturer of my 38 Hawken's style rifle told me different about black powder.
His 45's used 2F and 38's used 3F and starting loads were roughly 1gr/caliber then load hotter until they would Crack instead of Boom.
My 38 in rifled octagonal bull barrel uses 250gr ribbed slugs not the typically lighter Mini's and at one time these held the NZ blackpowder champs with a 3" 10 shot group using aperture sights.
Sadly Tony Hawkins that made these passed in his late 40's.

 

[std7mag]

The manufacturer of my 38 Hawken's style rifle told me different about black powder.
His 45's used 2F and 38's used 3F and starting loads were roughly 1gr/caliber then load hotter until they would Crack instead of Boom.
My 38 in rifled octagonal bull barrel uses 250gr ribbed slugs not the typically lighter Mini's and at one time these held the NZ blackpowder champs with a 3" 10 shot group using aperture sights.
Sadly Tony Hawkins that made these passed in his late 40's.

I've used 2F in my 36 caliber "Colt" Navy.
It can be done.
I'd be hesitant to use 60gr of 3F in my 44 cal Colt Walker though.

 

[one horn]

Real BP and Pyrodex need a non petroleum based bullet lube. Triple 7 and APP work with typical wax lubes. I prefer triple 7 for cartridge for that reason. Hodgdon has load data and instructions for common BP cartridges. Essentially don’t compress triple 7. Just load until it’s to the bottom of the bullet. You can also reduce your charge and make up the space with a filler. I use grits for filler in that case.

 

[DHall_37]

Real BP and Pyrodex need a non petroleum based bullet lube. Triple 7 and APP work with typical wax lubes. I prefer triple 7 for cartridge for that reason. Hodgdon has load data and instructions for common BP cartridges. Essentially don’t compress triple 7. Just load until it’s to the bottom of the bullet. You can also reduce your charge and make up the space with a filler. I use grits for filler in that case.

I have some 44 caliber wads in the mail would those work?