Bipod in F-Open?

[Berger.Fan222]

http://centralalabamagunclub.com/main/f-class/

It's a small F-Class match at 300 yards, but the results show the best F-TR shooter scores higher than the best F-Open shooter more than half the time.

There are occasions (like Feb 2015) where 3-4 F-TR shooters finish ahead of the F-Open shooters.

 

[mysticplayer]

I'm in complete agreement Jerry about the enormous strides FTR has taken in the last ten years, but here in the UK, we've yet to see an FTR aggregate overtop 'Open' in a GB F-Class Association league round, even in our annual season opener, the short-range (600 yards) match at Diggle in March. Mind you, if you've ever shot at Diggle in late March, you'd understand this! This almost certainly reflects the changeability of the weather and wind conditions at the three ranges which host GB-FCA matches - Bisley, Diggle, and Blair Atholl.

On a handful of occasions, a winning FTR 1,000 yard stage score has beaten that of the best Open shooter, but this is usually down to varying conditions across relays. If one misses a round, an easy way to acsertain how hard the conditions were is to look at the final scores and see how big a gap there is between the class winners. If single points, the conditions were steady; if 20-30 points, it was hard going out of aggs in the mid 300s. Even when the points totals are close, Open usually has a large gap in its favour in the aggregate V-count.

The three league rounds shot so far this year have all been in difficult conditions and have given the overall (Open) winner premiums of 15 points (600yd match) 19 points, and 36 points. Round 3 (Diggle) saw the FTR relays suffer bad luck by being caught in a series of heavy rainsqualls whilst Open was much less badly affected on its relays. The difference in aggregates was so great, the FTR winner would only have been 28th in Open class!

The ballistic differences between FTR and OPen equate to 100 to 150yds "more" distance. So, to play this game, look at the scores for FTR at 500yds for Open at 600yds

800yds for FTR vs 900yds for Open and so forth.

I bet the scores narrow up alot more.

BUT that difference is and will always be there at the same distance so an equal error by an FTR shooter will cost a point, where an Open shooter moves to the downwind side of the ring. In really big wind changes, that can equate to more then 1 scoring ring drift.

So I am not saying that FTR will ever beat Open on a consistent basis... FTR shooters are fighting a big uphill battle for sure BUT the bipod AND their rifles are equal in mechanical accuracy.

FTR and the 308 is just less forgiving...BUT the better bipods offer the same level of shot delivery as the better pedestal rests.

Jerry

 

[dannyjbiggs]

How common -- or uncommon -- is it for people to shoot F-Open with a bipod? Assuming that one has good technique managing a bipod, how much of a handicap is it compared to shooting off a pedestal front rest?

Thank you,

Dave Rabin

FWIW...Using a Sinclair bipod with an elevating mechanism under a Winchester .284 Whitley, I placed third in F-Open at the 2010 FCNC held at SVSC, CA. For certain, one will NOT have to be concerned with a .284 rifle "torqueing" on one of the old Sinclairs...you might have to chase it down for moving on the mat now and then...but no torqueing! Not long after that, I acquired a SEB front rest; and, I've not been able to do much better with it at the FCNC's since?! But, I prefer the SEB. Yet, if I were to have to shoot on the gravel firing lines at SVSC again, or those at the NRA Whittington Center, I would bring along both the Sinclair and the SEB Joypod for F-Open!

Dan

 

[brshtr]

This has been a really interesting and informative thread.

As I see it, there are three potential differences between an FTR rifle and an F-Open rifle: the cartridge (.308 or .223 vs. something else), the weight (F-Open can be almost 4 lbs. heavier) and the means of supporting the front of the stock. If one uses a good bipod in lieu of a pedestal rest, then it sounds like people are saying the main variable leading to different scores is the cartridge. Do you agree?

Dave Rabin

 

[mysticplayer]

I will use myself as an example since I have shot both open and FTR. Given a pedestal rest OR my MPOD, I end up with the same level of mechanical accuracy with the same setup and load, at the same distance on a calm day. I do not see an accuracy difference if I were to put the same rifle on a pedestal rest or my MPOD.

Follow through will be a bit different.

Where the big difference will be is in downrange ballistics between the 308/223 and Open choices. The Open choices are simply WAY easier to keep in the 10 ring at all distances when it is windy.

Given my wind reading skills, my "hit rate" with the Open options will be higher especially at 1000yds. The higher and bumpier the winds, the bigger the spread between my scores.

Jerry

 

[Laurie]

Dave,
the higher 'Open' weight allowance also allows more metal in the action, and at one time a lot more in the barrel. However, as FTR has developed people and their suppliers have become very clever at keeping everything other than the barrel very light to have as stiff a tube as possible but still make the 8.25kg rifle / scope / bipod all-up weight ceiling. Jerry's (mysticplayer) bipods are a good example. When we started FTR, a typical big-foot job weighed a kilo or so, now they're more stable, easier to set up before and adjust during a match, and weigh 40 or 50% less. It was common in the early days to use 1-inch tube fixed power scopes like the Weaver T24 or T36 to stay in weight and hope it didn't get too dark out on the range or conversely suffer too much mirage. Nowadays, FTR shooters have lightweight 30mm body variables that run up 60 or 80X powers.

Many people find they have a recoil issue with bipod shooting, so that 200gn plus bullets at very heavy loadings in 308 start to produce larger elevations. (They reduce windage though, so it's a trade-off that pays off in rougher conditions.) I think Jerry did a lot of work on that issue with stock as well as bipod development if I remember some Daily Bulletin items of a year or two back correctly.

When you get to cartridge choice for Open, the extra rifle weight and better support / stability from a front-rest allows greater latitude. If F-Class had been set up originally so that everybody had to use the same all-up weight and a bipod, the only difference being in the cartridges, it might be interesting to see what calibres and cartridges people would have chosen, and what would eventually have turned out to best for the majority of shooters. Bearing in mind that L-R prone sling shooters used the .300 Win Mag and 220/240gn Sierra MKs for many years and they have far less mechanical support than an FTR bipod / rear-bag arrangement, people might still be shooting 300WSMs or whatever. (But then again, the sling shooters discovered eventually that they got better scores with the lighter recoiling 6.5-284 than 300 magnums.)

The key issue is that given the kit now in use and the cartridges / bullets being loaded, people in both classes are able to produce startlingly small groups at 1,000 yards now, and do it consistently. People can still add to or detract from their potential through good or bad cartridge and equipment choices and through their handloading skills, but these things have become uniformly high over the years, at the top end of the sport anyway. So, with relatively level playing fields, it comes back to the winners making the right sighting and wind reading decisions during the match, or at any rate making fewer poor ones than everybody else. For the FTR competitor to match an Open shooter's scores at long distance, as Jerry says, he or she has got to get the wind reading so much more consistently right for shot after shot. Traditionally, a good 'Open' cartridge saw the bullet move around 40% less in any wind condition change than a good 308 combination. Today, that margin has reduced a bit, but it's still maybe 30% or so with the ballistics that people actually produce, so in a constantly changing wind, the FTR shooter needs to be that bit more accurate, and as some wind changes aren't necessarily well represented by flag aspects or mirage, that bit luckier too.

Even if comps were restricted to 200-500 yards, the 'Open' shooter will still come out on top more often than not as in that environment he or she can tailor the cartridge to the distance and 284s / SAUMs / WSMs would be replaced by say the 6 Dasher which all other things being equal is still going to 'outshoot' 223 or 308 as mandated by the regulations for FTR. (And, if they didn't how come we don't read of 223/308 shooters winning mid-range BR comps instead the top sixes?)

 

[brshtr]

Here's an update:

When I posted my question a week or so ago, I had decided to shoot a 6BR but was trying to decide whether to shoot on a pedestal rest or a bipod (a Rempel). We had a 600 yard match today and I shot off the bipod. I rested the bipod on a $5 doormat that I found at Home Depot.

As it turns out, the bipod was plenty stable and I doubt I would have shot a higher score on a pedestal rest; the points I dropped were due to bad wind calls, not lack of stability or poor tracking. 200-7X, 188-4X and 192-4X. Came in second in F-Class by one point so I felt like I did okay.

Thanks again for the thoughtful responses.

Dave Rabin

 

[noload]

I've shot my highest X count with a 6br and Harris bipod at a F Class Open match, 300yd, 450/39X.