best cartridge up to 400 yards

[BradY]

If your saying you will buy a factory gun then your really getting limited to cals and what you can expect from it. Sometimes you get a good factory gun, sometimes you wont. A 0.25MOA gun? Doubtful. For 400yds there are a couple of options. Tikka T3 in 223 with their 8 twist barrel shooting 80gr SMK's. Most manufacturers make 308's, again finding one that will hold 0.25MOA is going to be interesting. Savage make 6BR's but theres still the chance it might not shoot as good as you want it. That could be the best option for factory guns.

Buy once cry once, get decent quality aftermarket action and barrel and have a reputable gunsmith chamber you a 6BR 8 twist for 105gr bullets or 6.5x47L 8 twist for 123-140gr bullets. Spend money on good quality optics too. You will need to load and tune your own ammo to your gun as well.

 

[Gabe22BR]

6.5 Grendel with 18" barrel. I seen one shoot out to 1000yds-no problem. Also seen it make one ragged hole at 600yds.

Tell you what, I'll wager my rifle against your 6.5 Grendel with an 18" barrel at 600 and 1000, 20 shots for record on an F class target. I shoot my TR rig, you shoot the 18" Grendel

I can do Oak Ridge just about any day, I'll be in StL on July Second or you can show up at the TN state championships in either Tullahoma or Memphis

I don't have a Grendel, but a guy that shoots with us does. I don't shoot COMP. I use my 22BR, and dasher almost everyday. Tell ya what, you bring that rifle, up here we'll go shoot some deer& groundhogs for real world experience. Must be mobile, & easy in out of a vehicle window. Night shoots are always fun with a spotlights.. ;D

 

[dcali]

1/4 moa is unrealistic. If that is your expectation, you will be disappointed. That is short range benchrest territory, and all that it implies. Even then, its difficult to achieve consistently.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

1/4 moa is unrealistic. If that is your expectation, you will be disappointed. That is short range benchrest territory, and all that it implies. Even then, its difficult to achieve consistently.

What about the guys on here who can shoot <0.25MOA "all day long"? What about the "1 ragged hole at 600 yards" (size of the hole and number of shots conveniently omitted)?

Infidel! ;D

 

[XTR]

1/4 moa is unrealistic. If that is your expectation, you will be disappointed. That is short range benchrest territory, and all that it implies. Even then, its difficult to achieve consistently.

What about the guys on here who can shoot <0.25MOA "all day long"? What about the "1 ragged hole at 600 yards" (size of the hole and number of shots conveniently omitted)?

Infidel! ;D

One ragged hole if the bullet tumbled or the paper was wet, or "Gets to 1000 to problem", yea, so long as getting to 1000 means hitting the 6'x6' target frame on most shots.

 

[XTR]

6.5 Grendel with 18" barrel. I seen one shoot out to 1000yds-no problem. Also seen it make one ragged hole at 600yds.

Tell you what, I'll wager my rifle against your 6.5 Grendel with an 18" barrel at 600 and 1000, 20 shots for record on an F class target. I shoot my TR rig, you shoot the 18" Grendel

I can do Oak Ridge just about any day, I'll be in StL on July Second or you can show up at the TN state championships in either Tullahoma or Memphis

I don't have a Grendel, but a guy that shoots with us does. I don't shoot COMP. I use my 22BR, and dasher almost everyday. Tell ya what, you bring that rifle, up here we'll go shoot some deer& groundhogs for real world experience. Must be mobile, & easy in out of a vehicle window. Night shoots are always fun with a spotlights.. ;D

Sorry, poaching went off my radar decades ago, and for that I used a 22 mag. Night shooting, whether illegal or not I've always used rimfires. Coons and possums (legal where I grew up), no point in a center fire in the trees, I used a 10-22, and I never used "stingers" too much pelt damage.

I'll make it easy on your grendel, come shoot and make 5Xs in a row out of 20 shots at 600 and win $100. You put nothing on the line other than pride.

otherwise, Take it back to SnipersHide.

 

[Gabe22BR]

We have a Permit from the Fish And Game Officer. Legal, by federal LAW. We have over 22,000 acres of beans planted, that we do big game damage control.

I guess you don't have any experience in this area....I like to shoot, reload, work on my own rifles. I make my living form those crop fields.
OP asked, I answered. Sorry if I struck it the wrong way....AH

 

[XTR]

OP asked, I answered. Sorry if I struck it the wrong way....AH

My point is that you answered with typical internet shooting BS. A "ragged hole" from a grendel at 600 yards, I'm challenging you to prove it. Three random shots out of 20 that grouped together is not a group. If hitting a Chinette plate at 100 yds is your definition of accuracy then fine. The OP asked about accurate chamberings out to 400 yards.

If you are shooting at 400 yards (from the OP) with a Grendel then you are seriously reaching. Pretty much any load in a Grendel with a 16.5" tube is going to be slow and weak at 400 yards. Probably works great if you are just slinging them out there, but seriously not where it was designed to be used.

Oh, and unless you are hunting on federal land the permits and laws are "State" LAW not "Federal" LAW.

 

[martin155]

If your saying you will buy a factory gun then your really getting limited to cals and what you can expect from it. Sometimes you get a good factory gun, sometimes you wont. A 0.25MOA gun? Doubtful. For 400yds there are a couple of options. Tikka T3 in 223 with their 8 twist barrel shooting 80gr SMK's. Most manufacturers make 308's, again finding one that will hold 0.25MOA is going to be interesting. Savage make 6BR's but theres still the chance it might not shoot as good as you want it. That could be the best option for factory guns.

Buy once cry once, get decent quality aftermarket action and barrel and have a reputable gunsmith chamber you a 6BR 8 twist for 105gr bullets or 6.5x47L 8 twist for 123-140gr bullets. Spend money on good quality optics too. You will need to load and tune your own ammo to your gun as well.

Yeah I know, maybe I´ll get Tikka T3, <0.5 MOA would be fine in that case. I was thinking about custom rifle either, but I´not sure if I want to invest $5000+ into a rifle right now.

I am little bit confused. I´ve read 6BR cartridge guide and they recommend 1:8 for 80s bullets and 1:10 for BIB 95gr FB / Berger 88gr. I thought faster twist rate --> heavier bullet --> longer distance.

What twist rate would you choose for 223 Rem 90gr VLD?

How is barrel length generally important, would be 22"-24" barrel for 223 at that distance sufficient?

 

[CaptainMal]

Martin.

It's good you ask questions. So many are trying to answer and I see an issue. In your questions and comments I see an incomplete understanding of basic shooting fundamentals. In the areas of twist, bullet weight, stability, velocity, barrel length etc. I read the issues.

My suggestion is you do read what people are saying to you now. Then READ some more. Get a handle on the topics I referred to so you understand a bit more of how they actually interplay. Then, with more education, you will understand more to be able to ask better questions and then can make better-informed decisions.

 

[BradY]

For 90gr bullets in a 223 I would be using a 7 twist. Tikka make an 8 twist which will shoot 80gr SMK's fine but I doubt will stabilise the 90gr bullets.

For out to 400yds you will be fine with shorter barrels. Longer barrels means more velocity which helps with wind drift and keeping bullets supersonic at long range. If you get the opportunity to shoot further you might struggle a bit so at least try to get a 26 inch barrel, unless your using the gun for dual purpose stuff and want to hunt with it. Long barrels arent always so much fun for hunting.

For the 6BR get an 8 twist. It will stabilise any bullet you can lay your hands on, apart from the 115gr bullets. The 107 SMK is a good bullet to shoot, as are the berger VLD's. Some bullets will stabilise in slower twists but an 8 will be fine.

 

[martin155]

Martin.
It's good you ask questions. So many are trying to answer and I see an issue. In your questions and comments I see an incomplete understanding of basic shooting fundamentals. In the areas of twist, bullet weight, stability, velocity, barrel length etc. I read the issues.
My suggestion is you do read what people are saying to you now. Then READ some more. Get a handle on the topics I referred to so you understand a bit more of how they actually interplay. Then, with more education, you will understand more to be able to ask better questions and then can make better-informed decisions.

I appreciate your feedback. I´m going to read definitely more about suggested topics. I started gathering info not a long ago so I probably have some wrong assumptions about mentioned topics (mostly about relation between barrel length and twist rate).
On the other hand I don´t see what´s wrong with question: "Most suitable barrel length and twist rate for accurate target shooting up to 300-400 yards with 223 rem / 6br rifle".

I was aware that barrel length is important for velocity, but I´ve also read that changes in velocity with different barrel length are not so significant, that´s why I asked about barrel length.
And to quote article from accurateshooter.com: "general rule is that the faster the twist rate for a given caliber, the longer the bullet". So it would mean that e.g. BIB 95gr FB is shorter that Berger 80s for which is recommended faster twist rate.

For 90gr bullets in a 223 I would be using a 7 twist. Tikka make an 8 twist which will shoot 80gr SMK's fine but I doubt will stabilise the 90gr bullets.
For out to 400yds you will be fine with shorter barrels. Longer barrels means more velocity which helps with wind drift and keeping bullets supersonic at long range. If you get the opportunity to shoot further you might struggle a bit so at least try to get a 26 inch barrel, unless your using the gun for dual purpose stuff and want to hunt with it. Long barrels arent always so much fun for hunting.
For the 6BR get an 8 twist. It will stabilise any bullet you can lay your hands on, apart from the 115gr bullets. The 107 SMK is a good bullet to shoot, as are the berger VLD's. Some bullets will stabilise in slower twists but an 8 will be fine.

Thank you for advice.

 

[dcali]

I would recommend buying Bryan Litz's books before spending a bunch of money. 400 yards is right about the point where you start to wonder if you should be chasing better inherent accuracy (like short range benchrest) or if you should favor better ballistics.

It's a much easier question to answer for 100 yards or for 600 yards. But a 6BR shooting 105's of some sort out of a 26" or so barrel with a 1:8 twist would be a good starting point. You can do better up close with lighter bullets and slower twists, but I think that would be a good compromise, and would get you a good deal further than 400 if conditions aren't too bad.

Edit: I don't have any experience with them myself, but I've seen some guys shoot some impressive mid-range groups with a 6.5x47 Lapua. That might be worth looking at, as it was designed just for that sort of range.

 

[X-Caveman]

I would recommend buying Bryan Litz's books before spending a bunch of money. 400 yards is right about the point where you start to wonder if you should be chasing better inherent accuracy (like short range benchrest) or if you should favor better ballistics.

It's a much easier question to answer for 100 yards or for 600 yards. But a 6BR shooting 105's of some sort out of a 26" or so barrel with a 1:8 twist would be a good starting point. You can do better up close with lighter bullets and slower twists, but I think that would be a good compromise, and would get you a good deal further than 400 if conditions aren't too bad.

I agree. There's an informal series of 400 yard matches in Texas that I shoot. There are essentially no rules other than .308" max projectile dia & no single piece rests or rail guns. Targets are clay pigeons from 4" to 2-3/8". People compete with 6BRs to 300 WSM and everything in between. 11# to 70# rifles. 7mm and 6.5mm have been winning and placing high this year, but a guy drove a 6BR (perhaps a Dasher) for the win at least 1x last year in positively miserable conditions. At merely 400 yards, even with a 230 Hybrid at 2,900 FPS, the shooter has to know where to point! I think what is finally starting to sink into my thick skull is to pick a horse & learn to ride it. In my case, it's a 6.5x47, but I suspect I could be just as happy with a Creedmore or a Dasher. Just make sure you can afford to shoot plenty and can manage the recoil in a match environment. That makes the 6s and 6.5s solid recommendations, IMO.

 

[Raythemanroe]

.50 BMG


Ray

 

[martin155]

.50 BMG
Ray

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ft2j6J4NcY

 

[Raythemanroe]

.50 BMG
Ray

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ft2j6J4NcY

Nice brake


Ray

 

[noload]

Dave, I must be living under a rock, that statement about the 30's taking everything down, especially from 300 to 500 is impressive. Is that just ground hogs or paper too ? And the groups in the .2's, child's play, is that 300 and 500 also ? If it is true I,m going to scrap my 6 Dasher project and dig into the 30's further.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

That's what I was referring to in my previous post. The 30BR and its variants hold up pretty well to those distances. You have to remember, you're not supposed to miss the condition. When you do, the higher bc projectiles will be somewhat more forgiving. Question is, are they forgiving enough to outweigh the downside of being inherently harder to make shoot as well as the short range bullets and cartridges. Neither will go where you want it to when you pull the trigger at the wrong time. The short range combos have proven that they do go where they should, when they should, to a degree that is indisputable. I'm not saying that you can't shoot tiny groups with wind beater cartridges on occasion or that they won't shoot...Just that IME they don't do it as well as the short range stuff.


I posted earlier the notion of a 7BR or similar. Problem here is that you have to stay where good bullets are made. The mid-weight 7mm bullets aren't there yet, nor are the 6.5's. Maybe, one of the small cartridges with in a 6.5 or 7mm will be a viable and competitive option, but at this time, I'd stay with proven short range options out to 400 and maybe a bit further...and learn to shoot it. The 6 BR is a good option where there may be a good compromise currently available.


I have tested and shot pretty well with a straight 10 twist 6br. What I found was that I couldn't make everyone else miss enough to beat them with it. It did have it's days, though. I won a trigger pulling contest at 100 yards with it, I think just a single point off of the record. Think about that...That's not supposed to happen. Everyone knows a 10 twist 6br won't run with a ppc or 3br at 100...especially in good conditions...Right?


I was shooting either 87 Bergers or 95 BIBS...I don't recall which at the time. Both will shoot in that setup. If I were going to venture away from the proven short range stuff to play the game you describe. I think that setup may be about as close to perfect as you can get. day in and day out.. FWIW--Mike

 

[dcali]

My .30BR is also freakishly accurate, although I haven't been able to reliably stay in the twos (as in, average five five shot groups). I'm also not much of a benchrest shooter - it's more of a tinkering kind of activity for me. Getting aggregates into the .3's took almost no load development, and I'm the first one to call BS on that type of claim. The rifle is a trued 700 with a krieger 1:18 twist. Bullets were BIB's - 118's and 112's that I bought a LONG time ago, and recently pulled off the shelf to play around with.

I've not shot it much past 200 yards, and never more than 300, and I always assumed 400 might be a bit much given the stubby flat based bullets. Perhaps I shouldn't be so quick to judge. If it works out to 400, it's highly recommended by me.