Best 3 way brass trimmer? Revisited

[Dusty Stevens]

All giraud or some has to do is make aftermarket caliber insert with a micro adjust and itd be the gnats azz. You can set the cutter head or buy different ones to leave set and change out.. but the shell holder part needs to be precise to turn in a thou at a time, until its exactly where it needs to be.

The screwing in of the shell holder and lock ring isnt precision enough for me.

Simple for a machinist to make

 

[500Stroker]

Another note....for fairly quick 3-way trimming the Forster unit is relatively low cost and, once you get in the groove, can be very quick. I have seen one in use but never used it. As far as accurate enough how about a 600yd 20 shot F-class 200-22x record with that unit. Just pointing it out as the Forster indexes off the case head.

OK how do you get a "200-22X" with 20 shots? Are you including sighters? What am I missing? Show us the target.

 

[rardoin]

OK how do you get a "200-22X" with 20 shots? Are you including sighters? What am I missing? Show us the target.

F-class....if you get a perfect target, 200-20x, you keep firing until you drop a shot out of the 'X' ring as at that point you are firing for a potential national record. The score still maxes out at 200-20x for determining match placement...no 'points' added beyond 200-20X. Makes sense?

Robin

I may still have a photo of the target shot by Shawn Broussard at the 2016 Louisiana F-class 600yd Championships.

I think this is it...two sighters...unpasted shot was the 'dropped' shot...LOL:

 

[500Stroker]

F-class....if you get a perfect target, 200-20x, you keep firing until you drop a shot out of the 'X' ring as at that point you are firing for a potential national record. The score still maxes out at 200-20x for determining match placement...no 'points' added beyond 200-20X. Makes sense?

Robin

I may still have a photo of the target shot by Shawn Broussard at the 2016 Louisiana F-class 600yd Championships.

I think this is it...two sighters...unpasted shot was the 'dropped' shot...LOL:

Very nice!

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Forster should put that in their advertisement. “Look what our trimmer did!!”

 

[rardoin]

Forster should put that in their advertisement. “Look what our trimmer did!!”

Yup...with the correct trim length you don't have to do load development, build a precision rifle or even make wind calls....its like MAGIC!!! Oh...and you don't even have to use a 6.5 Creedmoor.

(disclaimer- the Creedmoor 'hype' got me into this sport so it does hold a spot in my heart)

 

[Brians356]

its all manuel set up each time you change calibers, trial and error..

There's than Mexican guy again.
-

 

[Brians356]

I don't like Giraud because it removes too much brass. I don't want my cases to double for leather hole punches.

Here's a leather punch I actually made from a 223 Rem case (flattened to make oval holes in a belt). Works great!
-

 

[Fotheringill]

Guys:

We all want to be the best we can be. I don't necessarily need to be the fastest I can be or the laziest I can be. Making a round is work. Making the best round one can make is more work.

I looked at the cost of the 21st Century (and I have several of their products) super duper multi tool head thing for $2000 + and frankly, I don't think I would ever get the benefit of it back before I die. Less effort, sure, but where does one not cross the line into superfluous stuff? In my mind, the best basic advancement was the demise of the torpedo style chamfer tool and the birth of the same ones for the bit on a power screwdriver for inside and one for outside.

 

[Petros284]

Guys:

We all want to be the best we can be. I don't necessarily need to be the fastest I can be or the laziest I can be. Making a round is work. Making the best round one can make is more work.

I looked at the cost of the 21st Century (and I have several of their products) super duper multi tool head thing for $2000 + and frankly, I don't think I would ever get the benefit of it back before I die. Less effort, sure, but where does one not cross the line into superfluous stuff? In my mind, the best basic advancement was the demise of the torpedo style chamfer tool and the birth of the same ones for the bit on a power screwdriver for inside and one for outside.

With all due respect, not sure where the $2K plus is coming from for the 21st Century trimmer. If you already have a lathe (and there are many out there) the kit costs $195. Each additional caliber cutting arbor is $69.99. You can run the trimmer kit on either lathe (power and non-powered version). I believe you may be talking about the K&M multi-station prep center for $2600.
Thanks
-Pete

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I have a Giraud trimmer and a 21st Century neck turning lathe. You want a trimmer that indexes off of the shoulder (like the Giraud) not the base (like the 21st Century or Wilson).Go with separate tools.

I'd have to disagree here.
My chamber is set in relation to the bolt face where the face of the case rim makes contact, my sizing dies set shoulders in relation to the face of the case rim, my lands touch point in the chamber is found in relation to the face of the case rim, and my bullets are seated in relation to the face of the case rim....So I trim my brass in relation to the face of the rim. Theres no reason I have ever found to convince me otherwise.

Not saying trimming in relation to the shoulder is wrong or bad practice, it's just not a method I use or would suggest for others to use. Unless a person can guarantee perfect headspace measurements AND shoulder angles on every case and measure every time before they trim, then the brass will be inconsistent.

 

[savagedasher]

I'd have to disagree here.
My sizing dies set shoulders in relation to the face of the case rim, my lands touch point in the chamber is found in relation to the face of the case rim, my bullets are seated in relation to the face of the case rim....So I trim my brass in relation to the face of the rim. Theres no reason I have ever found to convince me otherwise.

Not saying trimming in relation to the shoulder is wrong or bad practice, it's just not a method I use or would suggest for others to use. Unless a person can guarantee perfect headspace measurements on every case and measure then every time before they trim to make sure, the brass will be inconsistent.

I feel everything is determined from the bolt face why should cases be different

 

[Brians356]

I feel everything is determined from the bolt face why should cases be different

The absolute distance from case mouth to boltface is not critical. Sure, the SAAMI Max. Case Length is from base of the case, but let's face it - who lets their cases get very close to the end of the chamber? There is a yuuuge allowable case length span - a total of .020" from Min. to Max.

WRT trimming, all we really care about is that all necks are the same length. If necks (from shoulder) are all the same, then pushing the shoulders all to the same distance from the boltface (using a good die, properly) then it follows that the overall case lengths will be the same (measured from boltface.)

But for me, here's what's really important: My neck turner indexes off the case mouth. So, if I want my turner's cutter to cut into all the shoulders the same distance, I need my necks to have been trimmed indexing off the shoulders! Think about it.
-

 

[Ledd Slinger]

But for me, here's what's really important: My neck turner indexes off the case mouth. So, if I want my turner's cutter to cut into all the shoulders the same distance, I need my necks to have been trimmed indexing off the shoulders! Think about it.
-

Necks turned onto shoulders after trimming from the face of the case rim. My 21st Century turner indexes off the case mouth as well. Never an issue.

 

[rardoin]

I don't like Giraud because it removes too much brass. I don't want my cases to double for leather hole punches.

Here's a leather punch I actually made from a 223 Rem case (flattened to make oval holes in a belt). Works great!
-
View attachment 1084434

It's all in the set-up. I don't make leather punches with my brass...just paper punches.

 

[Fotheringill]

With all due respect, not sure where the $2K plus is coming from for the 21st Century trimmer. If you already have a lathe (and there are many out there) the kit costs $195. Each additional caliber cutting arbor is $69.99. You can run the trimmer kit on either lathe (power and non-powered version). I believe you may be talking about the K&M multi-station prep center for $2600.
Thanks
-Pete

Pete-

I may have been hallucinating, but I thought I saw that number. I will dig around to refind it.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

So I'll explain my reasoning for trimming off the case rim. Some may agree, some not. That's fine. Just my theory and reasoning.

As stated before, everything producing a piece of ammo for my chamber is doing so in relation to the boltface, which is essentially the same as the face of the case rim.

So let's say my bullet is touching the lands, which in many cases it is. We all seat bullets with the rim as base point, so when I trim from the rim, the end of my case mouth will always be exactly the same in relation to the seated bullet bearing surface and distance to the lands/grooves in the barrel. The case mouth is the point in which the powder gases escape the confines of the chamber and the bullet blocking its path. We try to maintain perfect neck tension, perfect seating depths, perfect powder charge weights, perfect headspace, etc. all for one reason which is to create identical pressure curves within the chamber and down the barrel until the bullet escapes the bore. When the powder is ignited, a small amount of gas gets down the bore before first. If my case length measurements from the rim face to the case mouth vary and the expanding gases escape a little earlier or a little later before the bullet bearing surface is able to seal the bore around the bullet, will my pressure curves be more or less consistent?

Now granted, very small differences in case lengths may be hard to see on paper for some rifles. Especially if a person has conducted good ladder testing and found a nice forgiving tune, but case trim length consistency is easier to control than other aspects of case prep so I like to make sure it is done right every time.

 

[Brians356]

Necks turned onto shoulders after trimming from the face of the case rim. My 21st Century turner indexes off the case mouth as well. Never an issue.

I'll take your word for it, of course. But your single photo doesn't demonstrate the case-to-case consistency of cuts into the shoulders. Of course it's possible to get gnat's arse consistency indexing the neck trim off the base. But it's only logical there's much less room for inconsistency if a) the trimmer indexes off the shoulder, and then b) the turner indexes off the mouth back to that same shoulder.
-

 

[KenOath]

Id like to revisit case neck turning/trimmers/chamfer/deburr tools.

Since 21st Century came out with the new attachment... even though its all expensive. It seems like this just put this tool on top. One tool with accessories that neck turn, trim, chamfer, deburr... To my knowledge theres not another tool on the market that does all 4.

The girard was top, but it doesnt neck turn, so you still have to have a separate set up to do that...

Seems like buy once cry once, 21st cent lathe has the market for all around best now...

Agree, disagree?

If you turn necks, I suppose it does...

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I'll take your word for it, of course. But your single photo doesn't demonstrate the case-to-case consistency of cuts into the shoulders. Of course it's possible to get gnat's arse consistency indexing the neck trim off the base. But it's only logical there's much less room for inconsistency if a) the trimmer indexes off the shoulder, and then b) the turner then indexes off the mouth back to that same shoulder.
-

A reamer should be designed so the bullet bearing surface never comes in contact with the donut formation area at the base of the neck. Which makes the turning cut onto the shoulder a lot less significant than OAL brass length. Your shoulder bump also needs to be consistent. If it is, then the shoulders will all turn down just fine.

A trimmer that indexes off the shoulder isn't going to compensate for shoulder bump inconsistency. It's only going to hide it aesthetically on the brass and that doesnt help anything.