need the hive to teach me case prep 101

[Ghengisahn175]

Gents,

looking to get a serious understanding of case prep. It's one of the things that I haven't had any experience yet and would like to know. For now, I am focusing on collecting 21st century tools. The calibers I will be shooting are : 300WM, 308 win & 260 remington.

The topics I am looking to go over are:
neck turning
case weighing and separation
21st century tools

To my understanding this is how I should be going about it, starting from the fired case:
deprime / clean the cases (I SS tumble) / FL size.
from this point after FL sizing I should run the expander mandrel first. (21st century expander die body for the appropriate calibers).
After expanding the necks, I should use the concentricity gauge
*first point of confusion: it says it can check the inside and outside diameter. Should I not proceed until inside is as concentric as possible by running through expander mandrel? I believe once the inside is concentric, the outside diameter will have all the flaws pushed out.
once inside is good then use the concentricity gauge on the outside (there should be flaws). From there, use the neck turning tool to make the outside concentric.
**second point of confusion: from the concentricity gauge readings, I should turn the necks down to the lowest indicated reading I got on the outside?
*** Do I require the 21st century lathe or can I still use the neck turning tool by other means?

Once my necks are concentric inside & out, I should trim (if need be) chamfer & deburr.

****4th point of confusion: Once all the "physical changes" are done to the brass (minus uniforming primer pockets), should I case weigh first or measure case capacity first with water?

*****5th point: what is the acceptable tolerance between case weights and/or water capacities?

I really need my hand held here. Confused and would like to make first time intelligent purchases.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

First thing you need to ask is "will i see a difference if i skip these steps?" "Is my rifle good enough to see these differences AND am I good enough to tell the difference in these steps at this point in my career?" Some of those things just take the fun out of shooting and mentally youve lost before you get started.

 

[BoydAllen]

Are the rifles that you are shooting factory? The reason that I ask is that if you are using decent brass, you may not see any accuracy advantage by turning necks. What brand of brass are you using for each caliber. What sort of accuracy work has been done to your rifles? The reason for these questions is that accuracy is a weakest link thing, and working on something that is not the weakest link may not yield much, until more important things are taken care of.

 

[Ghengisahn175]

Fair enough, here's what I'm working with.

Factory AIAX 2014 chambered in 260 Remington. Current barrel is shot out and
I will be putting a new proof barrel on.
Using lapua brass

300WM is a custom surgeon action, 29" kreiger barrel on a 2014 AIAX chassis.
Using RWS brass

308 is non existent at this time but is my future build.
Will be using either LC head stamped brass or lapua brass (whichever I can get in bulk).

I feel like I've shot enough and lowered my ES/SD as low as I could've prior to taking these steps. I want to do this extra case prep work not out of necessity but passion in reloading. I find it very fun and my goal is to make bench rest worthy handloads.

I take pride in gaining more knowledge and putting it to use in my reloading regimen.

I also think I'm starting to develop donuts in my 260 brass and I noticed seating billets varies between cases slightly.

Currently my ES is 30-35 and my SD is between 7-9 for both calibers.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

What size groups are you shooting currently? What boyd is getting at is you quite possibly may never see any of this on paper. Working on tuning the gun and load is way more important than getting a perfect chrono number- its not in the results section of a match. But if you have the time and passion for your reloads then please do all you can to make them the best they can be. We just wanted to make sure your concentration was in the correct areas to better yourself while having fun not stressing about things that are not affecting you possibly yet.

 

[dedogs]

2 things that I do differently than the order you posted.

1) I always trim, champher and de-burr before I neck turn so I get a consistent cut into the shoulder neck junction (instead of guessing-- old eyes)
2) When turning necks I often just take a skim cut first (split the difference between thinnest and thickest) and see how the brass shoots. You can always take more off but you can't put it back.

If you are in fact getting donuts in your 260 brass- K&N makes inside neck turning mandrels that will take those out. In fact you can inside neck ream and outside neck turn at the same time with the K&N tool.

As far as the 21st Century neck turning lathe is concerned let your wallet be your guide. There have been a myriad of discussions on this site about mechanized neck turning. Some guys use their lathes, some use a cordless drill. I myself use a big azzed 3/4" Milwaukee drill plugged into a foot pedal. Turns 450 RPM which is just right for my needs. Make sure if you are using a motor of some sort to turn your brass that you lube the pilot each and every time. Friction causes heat, heat causes metal to expand and you will get inconsistent results.
These are the ways I do it, YMMV. Hope this helps, dedogs

 

[Ghengisahn175]

Dusty, Boyd,

As far as 100 yard groups I'm shooting between 1 ragged holes to 3/4 of an inch. I do have flyers and I catch myself with bad form (normally I pinch my shoulder blades , habit).

My 1000 yard groups (only done it with 260 haven't had chance with the WM) are 6 3/4" - 7.5" verticals with wind slightly less than that (confirmed on multiple days). Not trying to brag here if I come across that way; to be fair we had unlimited sighters and wind was minimal with great conditions.

Other than that I haven't measured anything in between. This was shooting off a bipod and rear bag on a concrete bench.

I know it still adds another variable, but I figured I can do more prep work in reloading from case prep to better bullet sorting to make everything more consistent.


Dedogs thanks for sharing your methods. I don't have any of the tools yet so going off an idea based on what I've read. Turning AFTER trim/chamfer does make more sense.

So when you split the difference, you're goal isn't to make everything one concentric # it's to "half" the inconsistencies? Do you make all your brass the same as each other or each case has its own? I figured I can measure 10-15, get a # and apply it to all my brass so they're all identical .

I didn't know I could use my corded drill instead of the lathe. I don't have a foot pedal. Would I have issues of slipping and FUBARing my brass if it slipped in my hands for whatever reason? If that is a possibility I will save for the lathe to take out human error should it be a concern

 

[BoydAllen]

Without trying to be comprehensive, here are a couple of suggestions for your .260. A friend of mine was experiencing variations in seating pressure, using Lapua brass, with his .223 and found that by doing a proper annealing job that that problem was greatly improved, as well as his accuracy. While on the subject, let me say that I would not use a method to clean cases that removes the powder fouling from the inside of case necks, because leaving most of it in there tends to promote more even seating pressure. Personally, I use 0000 steel wool to remove the powder fouling from the outside of necks, wipe them off, and run an old bronze bore brush in and out of the necks a couple of times. IMO if you feel you need to turn your necks, you should first take note of how much clearance your loaded rounds have in your chamber neck. If that clearance is already generous, increasing it may not be what you want to do. For factory chambers, and unturned necks, several posters here have reported favorable results by following a sizing procedure that I have suggested, neck sizing with a Lee Collet die, followed by body sizing with a body die, set for proper shoulder bump. This has resulted in very straight ammo for those that have tried it. Just remember that in this case, neck tension is controlled by mandrel diameter and not toggling force. Lee sells mandrels in different diameters, or you can use wet and dry abrasive paper (320 grit works) to sand them down a little at a time, spinning them with your drill. On driving your cases, there should be no problem with a drill, but the issues are excess speed of a corded drill and fit on the turning mandrel. Lower RPMs will be better in terms of the heat buildup that you get while turning. There are a few other tricks as well. I like the 21st Century or PMA Tool case holders a lot better than K&M's and I have found that the fit that I get from the standard diameter K&M expander mandrel to give a tighter fit on the turning mandrel than I like. He will make custom diameters and I might consider adding a couple of ten thousandths. With proper technique, you don't need a wring on fit on the turning mandrels to turn very good necks. Get back to me on this when you get there. I suggest that you practice turning on junk cases until you get the hang of it. That is enough on that subject for now. Other than sorting your cases by weight (probably not as good as by volume, but still better than not) and carefully weighing powder, taking care of inconsistencies in seating force should get you most of what you need. What sort of seating die are you using, and are you checking each round with a tool that measures off of bullets' ogives for consistency of seating? One more thing, there is a lot of bad advice on annealing out there. I have directed friends to follow Ken Lights approach on how much to heat cases even though they do not use his equipment. There is a good article that you should read, on this site. Avoid overheating necks. No glowing in a dark room. That would bee too much heat. A friend has found my advice to use a cheap metronome to be able to hear the seconds tick off to be very helpful. That should keep you busy for a while. Get back to us when you have implemented these steps, if you have more questions. As you probably know, accuracy is a weakest link thing. Using wind flags, shooting off of a bench that does not move at all, from the right rest setup, with enough scope magnification, and a light trigger all contribute to the result. Recently I was talking to a friend and discovered that he was trying to make do with a built in stool setup at his local range that was way off on height, and which resulted in poor body position while shooting. After I coached him as to what correction to make, his groups improved noticeably. Don't try harder. Try different. Good luck.
Boyd

 

[Ghengisahn175]

Boyd,

Thanks for the info. For the 260 I'm using Neil jones sizing and seating die. I believe he said not to anneal as it would make the purpose of his sizing die useless. I haven't annealed yet but I haven't considered it because like you said there's a lot of opinions on proper method vs neck turning.

Seating die is NJ as well. For checking variation im using the hornady bullet comparators. I sort my bullets that way as well and when seated they're all consistent with each other. If I still get variation here I will sort them in groups.

Is there a method to check clearance on a loaded round in chamber?

 

[BoydAllen]

In round numbers, I think that fired necks are generally about .001 under chamber neck ID. Are you using a Jones FL die?

 

[Ghengisahn175]

Yes a FL die for the NJ.

 

[dedogs]

Ghengis, Quite often a simple skim cut that does not take material off the entire neck is sufficient to improve accuracy significantly. As I said before, you can always take more off, but you can't put it back. Boyd makes a good point--practice on junk brass (10 or even 20) before you go for the good stuff. You will need a good quality ball micrometer to do an accurate job. You correctly described my method of determining how much to take off a neck--measure 10-20 case necks with the ball micrometer at several points on the neck to get an average thickness. Then set up your neck turner to that thickness. Do not be alarmed that the cutter only takes material off part of the neck. This tells you that you are right on for a skim cut. I have also found the "pilot jack" that K&M sells for adjusting the pilot depth to be very useful to set the depth of cut into the shoulder/neck junction. This is a very tricky area-- too much and you risk a neck separation-- not enough and you risk forming donuts.
As far as the manipulation of the corded drill is concerned, I have no issues as the drill is so heavy that brass chatter has no effect. (If you get brass chatter you are feeding the case into the cutter too fast). A foot pedal is a very inexpensive addition and frees up both hands to manipulate the drill and the turning tool. If you are handy you can build a cradle for the drill to rest in on the bench. I believe there are foot pedals available that have a reostat adjustment in them so you can slow the speed of your drill down. I have no worries there as the old drill I'm using is a very slow gear reduction that only turns 450 RPM's. Still, I lube the pilot for every case. Clean them after with acetone or MEK. Hope this helps. Others here have other methods that work for them--but this is how I do it. dedogs