I have always just shot hornady and nosler bullets along with some sierra. I am getting ready to try my hand with some custom bullets. I have shot some Berger bullets here lately, and they were really accurate in my custom 243AI. I am extremely happy with Berger's performance. My question is i guess is, Are Berger bullets made with the same care and precision that custom bullets are made to? Are Berger bullet USUALLY better than the other Top name manufactures? I have had good luck with sierra bullets also. Is it worth the extra money and wait time for custom bullets? I Dont shoot any serious comps yet anyway. Some small club matches is as far as i have gone yet. I still have a lot to learn, thus the reason for the question. Thanks Lee
Berger bullets vs Custom bullets
- Thread starter skeetlee
- Start date
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Bergers are as good as they get.
Butch
Butch
Walt and Eunice can be proud of Eric. Berger bullets are as good or better than when Walt was punching them out 40 years ago by hand. We all miss Eunice,such a fine lady and great shooter) and I enjoy seeing Walt at the Shot Show. I both shoot them and recomend them to my customers.
Nat Lambeth
Nat Lambeth
I would go with a custom bullet just for the fact of the,consistency)
I could buy 1000 today turn around and buy 1000 4 months from now and know, they will be the same as the last.
You cant get that with a Berger Bullet in fact if you buy 500 Bergers measure and weigh them i bet you end up with at least 4 separate stacks..
And the new fowlers shoot as good or better then the old ones..
Just my two cents, well,, ok my one cent.
I could buy 1000 today turn around and buy 1000 4 months from now and know, they will be the same as the last.
You cant get that with a Berger Bullet in fact if you buy 500 Bergers measure and weigh them i bet you end up with at least 4 separate stacks..
And the new fowlers shoot as good or better then the old ones..
Just my two cents, well,, ok my one cent.
Moderator
Administrator
I have found recent lots of most Berger bullets to be very consistent. We recently were measuring distance to lands in a 6 PPC. Using Berger 68gr match bullets we measured distance to the lands using a Stony point tool. I took out 5 bullets at random from the box. Using a Mitutoyo digital calipers with .0001 resolution, I measured L to Lands twice with each bullet. The Variance for all five bullets was under .001,one-thousandth), all TEN measurements.
With the longer bullets, it's still probably advisable to measure base to ogive for bullets loaded in record rounds, but that's a simple thing to do.
I think you'll also find the Berger 80gr FBHP to be very accurate and very consistent... much more so than the Hornady bullets I've measured.
With the longer bullets, it's still probably advisable to measure base to ogive for bullets loaded in record rounds, but that's a simple thing to do.
I think you'll also find the Berger 80gr FBHP to be very accurate and very consistent... much more so than the Hornady bullets I've measured.
I have been using Walts bullets since the 70's ...ooo yea I shoot some 'others' also...there are lots-0-good uns available today....in 1991 at the Pa. State Unlimited I shot the titest 10 shot 100yd group ever using a sandbag gun..,there are 7 on record titer with 'railguns') ..at an official 'B'enchrest event with backers etc... it was .135',the record at the time was .118'--now currently .097')...the rifle was a 22 BR..legal HV...Berger bullets...and I have missed the 1000yd 10 shot record twice --once due to a case neck split,my fault) and once due to fireing the gun accidentaly during the rush of the shot string.,my fault)...both had 9 rite at 3'!!!...and then last month at Sacrement 600yd Nats...I shot a new record 3 target score agg..145-4x ...all using Berger bullets...sooo I kinda like em...I shooot lots of others but day in day out they are very consistent for me....and available in a few wks..and good price....Roger
MarkS
Silver $$ Contributor
skeetlee
I use Berger's as my accuracy standard. I want count the guns accuracy until I have shot Berger's in it. All but one of the current IBS 600 yd records were shot with Berger bullet. I have shot 3 records myself with Berger 105 VLD's.
My First 6BR that I built was a 12tw barrel to shoot 80 gr bullets. I shot many, many group aggs with Berger and Fowler's to see what was the best bullet for the gun. THe Fowler's edged out the Berger's by 0.010 on the agg. My Fowler's have ran out and now I shoot Berger's.
A good custom bench bullet may edge out Berger, only in many target agg, but not by much if at all.
You want go wrong with berger's.
Mark Schronce
I use Berger's as my accuracy standard. I want count the guns accuracy until I have shot Berger's in it. All but one of the current IBS 600 yd records were shot with Berger bullet. I have shot 3 records myself with Berger 105 VLD's.
My First 6BR that I built was a 12tw barrel to shoot 80 gr bullets. I shot many, many group aggs with Berger and Fowler's to see what was the best bullet for the gun. THe Fowler's edged out the Berger's by 0.010 on the agg. My Fowler's have ran out and now I shoot Berger's.
A good custom bench bullet may edge out Berger, only in many target agg, but not by much if at all.
You want go wrong with berger's.
Mark Schronce
I would rather that shooters answer this question but there is one comment made by gunamonth I must address.
The only correct part of this response is that our bullets are not made by using a hand operated press. I know those who make bullets by hand operated presses are craftsman who are very good at what they do. When you grow to the size Berger has machines are far more consistent with repeatable speed and travel than having 20 people pushing hand operated presses. Machines don't have bad nights sleep, get bored, destracted or hang overs. Those who make bullets on hand presses are able to control these factors when it is just themselves and a few others to monitor.
Most,all the more popular brands) custom bullet makers have someone help them make part or all of the bullet such as a family member or part time helper. I don't recall any bullet maker doing every step by themselves.
We ALWAYS use one lot of jackets as do all bullet makers who use the J4 jackets we produce. To not do so would be very difficult given weight and dimensional differences.
We ALWAYS use one set of dies. These dies are marked for a given jacket length and are used only for bullets made on that jacket length until the die wears out.
It is absolutely true that most of those who make bullets with J4 jackets on hand presses will shoot every bit as good,or mayber better depending on a given barrel) as Bergers. We hold ourselves to those same standards and everyone who buys Bergers should expect the same quality. If you do not believe you have received this quality from Berger let me know and I'll make it right.
The reason we are most often compared to Sierra, Nosler and Hornady is because we've managed to grow large enough to be thought of as a 'factory' bullet maker. The popularity is great but the association with the quality of 'factory' bullet brands is completely inaccurate. Keep in mind Berger makes more bullets than all the other hand press operations combined but we make a small fraction of the amount made by any of the large 'factory' operations.
Regards,
Eric
The only correct part of this response is that our bullets are not made by using a hand operated press. I know those who make bullets by hand operated presses are craftsman who are very good at what they do. When you grow to the size Berger has machines are far more consistent with repeatable speed and travel than having 20 people pushing hand operated presses. Machines don't have bad nights sleep, get bored, destracted or hang overs. Those who make bullets on hand presses are able to control these factors when it is just themselves and a few others to monitor.
Most,all the more popular brands) custom bullet makers have someone help them make part or all of the bullet such as a family member or part time helper. I don't recall any bullet maker doing every step by themselves.
We ALWAYS use one lot of jackets as do all bullet makers who use the J4 jackets we produce. To not do so would be very difficult given weight and dimensional differences.
We ALWAYS use one set of dies. These dies are marked for a given jacket length and are used only for bullets made on that jacket length until the die wears out.
It is absolutely true that most of those who make bullets with J4 jackets on hand presses will shoot every bit as good,or mayber better depending on a given barrel) as Bergers. We hold ourselves to those same standards and everyone who buys Bergers should expect the same quality. If you do not believe you have received this quality from Berger let me know and I'll make it right.
The reason we are most often compared to Sierra, Nosler and Hornady is because we've managed to grow large enough to be thought of as a 'factory' bullet maker. The popularity is great but the association with the quality of 'factory' bullet brands is completely inaccurate. Keep in mind Berger makes more bullets than all the other hand press operations combined but we make a small fraction of the amount made by any of the large 'factory' operations.
Regards,
Eric
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I have several brands of custom bullets that were all bought to feed a 6PPC short range Benchrest rifle. One brand in particular has become my favorite, mainly because I believe that the ogive shape makes it less critical on seating depth.
I while back a friend who had a perfectly good 6PPC was having trouble getting it tuned so I took him to the range and within a few minutes had his rifle shooting very well, with my favorite bullet. Then I decided that it would be a good idea to do the same thing with some Berger 68's that he had. It took two tries,shorten the amount into the lands slightly, and increase the powder charge slightly) to find tune with the Bergers, and a slightly smaller group than my favorite bullets. Conditions were optimal. After examining his bullets and noting the obvious good finish and consistency, I made a mental note to give them a serious trial. Later, before I had a chance to do that, a prominent rimfire shooter that I know decided to try his hand at short range centerfire Benchrest, I recounted my friend's experience and suggested that the 68 grain Bergers might be a good place to start. They did not disappoint. His rimfire skills translated into very respectable centerfire performance, and given the practice aggs that he has shot with the Bergers, I find little reason for him to spend a lot of time looking for the magic bullet.
I while back a friend who had a perfectly good 6PPC was having trouble getting it tuned so I took him to the range and within a few minutes had his rifle shooting very well, with my favorite bullet. Then I decided that it would be a good idea to do the same thing with some Berger 68's that he had. It took two tries,shorten the amount into the lands slightly, and increase the powder charge slightly) to find tune with the Bergers, and a slightly smaller group than my favorite bullets. Conditions were optimal. After examining his bullets and noting the obvious good finish and consistency, I made a mental note to give them a serious trial. Later, before I had a chance to do that, a prominent rimfire shooter that I know decided to try his hand at short range centerfire Benchrest, I recounted my friend's experience and suggested that the 68 grain Bergers might be a good place to start. They did not disappoint. His rimfire skills translated into very respectable centerfire performance, and given the practice aggs that he has shot with the Bergers, I find little reason for him to spend a lot of time looking for the magic bullet.
this has been a good read!! Thanks guys. I guess i have come to the conclusion that Berger bullets are made to the same standards as custom makers. I am still learning and i am eager to do so. The argument about a custom maker not letting his die wear out doesnt hold much thought to my mind. Berger bullets were built on a reputation of quality and i dont think for a second that they would make bullets on worn out equipment. I am sure they pay close attention to the condition of there tools. The statement made about a person being hungover or what ever else does make some since to me. I talked with a custom bullet maker the other day on the phone about some of his bullets. He was supposed to e-mail me instructions about my purchase later in the day after the phone conversation. He must have forgot. Anyway while talking to this GOOD man. He explained to me his situation, and a bit of his life story. He fought for our country and was subjected to Agent Orange. He has to take Morphine 3 times a day. I dont know squat about that, but it cant be good. He does make a fine bullet from what i understand and he is a super nice man, but what if he is having a worse than usual day??? I dont know, maybe this isn't relevant but after reading the above post it makes me think a little. I will buy some of his bullets as soon as he sends me my statement as arranged in the phone conversation. I do know one thing for sure, and that is, Berger bullets shoot darn good in all my rifles. Its just a matter of finding the right combo. Thanks guys!!!! Lee
falconpilot
Gold $$ Contributor
IMO....I've shot them all and shot to shot, Berger's can't be beat..Another thought on 'Custom Bullets'...Let's say you find a 'magic' bullet. You buy, say 100-250 to try and they shot the lights out - one hole at 1000 yards, all that..you shot them up, and need more...in alot of cases availability with 'custom' bullet makers is a big issue. This is something that I consider when buying bullets as well. When I find something that shoots, I want to be able to get it...Taking everything in account - accuracy, overall quality and consistency, and availablity, Bergers are the only way to go...
Fair enough!! That makes since, but i just dont think i am any were near that point in my shooting. As a matter a fact i know i am not. It seems that a barrel will only be competitive for 1500 rounds then you will replace it anyway. Even with a custom bullet can you be sure that the new barrel will like what the older barrel did? I am definitely not arguing at all, just trying to learn a bit, thats all. I am definatly going to try some different custom bullets out, but i still think its going to be hard to beat a Berger bullet with the equipment i own anyway. Thanks Gunamonth!! Lee
FWIW- The Supershoot, States and National 100-300 yd BR competitions are dominated and won using custom bullets.
In regards to the bad hair day comment:
Custom bullet makers invest thousands of dollars in dies and equipment and see minimal return on their investment when one factors in the labor involved to do it right.
The last thing these guys want is to ship out substandard bullets,
as THEIR name is on the line..... and the BR crowd is a testing ground that has few equals.
In regards to the bad hair day comment:
Custom bullet makers invest thousands of dollars in dies and equipment and see minimal return on their investment when one factors in the labor involved to do it right.
The last thing these guys want is to ship out substandard bullets,
as THEIR name is on the line..... and the BR crowd is a testing ground that has few equals.
THE POSITIVE SIDE TO THAT TESTING GROUND IS THAT DOWN THRU THE YEARS SO MUCH HAS BEEN DISCOVERED ABOUT THE ENTIRE SHOOTING FIELD INCLUDING HANDLOADING COMPONENTS, AND THE TOOLS WE USE TO HANDLOAD WITH. I DON'T COMPETE BUT I HAVE GAINED A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF KNOWLEDGE FROM THESE GREAT GUYS AND STUDYING THE DIFFERENT BOOKS AND ARTICLES THAT HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY SOME OF THEM. KEEP UP THE GREAT JOB GUYS. BILL
I agree totally with the everyone who believes in Berger Bullets. I am not the best shooter around and have only competed locally with my rifle in some weekend matches. I dont have a gazillion dollar bench gun all I have is a self accurized Remington 700 VLS in .243. But I will say this, all I shoot is Bergers 95 Gr VLDs in it. I have tested others and nothing comes close to the accuracy stanard set by them. I have achieved very small one hole groups testing at 100 yards in the .300 range with them routinly. I use my rifle out to 1000 yards most of the time and get very good results using Bergers. Though I have never shot for group at the 1000 yard line I have printed groups well under 4 inches at 900 on my steel plate targets. I will say that I have been lucky to have found a factory gun that shoots that well, but, I will also say that the bullets have a very big part in that accuracy as well. Good bullets make all the difference! I am an honest and true believer in Bergers through and through they produce one hell of a great product weather it is beleved to be 'custom' by some or not, my groups tell me so. You couldnt go wrong.
And if you check the super shoot results Mr. Stecker placed 18th/302 in the 13.5lb at 100yds, and tied for 16th/302 in the grand agg for 13.5lb guns using Bergers. This kind of shoot is not one that a top level shooter goes to to come in second place. They go with their best equipment with no compromises. I have shot some 110's in my 30br, and got my tightest groups with them...several .25's, and a couple .2's. I have also shot well with BIB's. Shots that went out of the group were supposed to based on the flags. Now, that isn't 'top level' accuracy, but I am not a top level shooter by any means.
You will not be disappointed with them.
Mike
You will not be disappointed with them.
Mike
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
My best 200 yard group in competition was a .153 shot with Berger bullets.
Butch
Butch
The Berger 6mm 68 gr. HP flat base bullet has been my standard 'go-to' bullet of choice for my 6ppc and 6BRs with 1-14 twists, for many years now, and they have always delivered. That's what I base my judgement on: reliability over a long period of time. I'm sure there are others just as good, and even better, but I see no reason to change. Just had my first 1-8 twist 6BR built and the heavier Bergers are at the top of my 'try' list.
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