Custom VS Berger bullets

[ClassCat]

A little food for thought. Reamer, Barrel, Bullet compatibility. Think about that

 

[Hengehold]

I'm just a new guy, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. But...I think I've shot enough to have an opinion, so here's mine.

All customs are not created equal. I've measured. I've weighed. Just because a guy can hang a shingle selling bullets doesn't make them any better than what Berger sells, but IMO the guys that do it right can and do make better bullets than Berger.

In what ways are they better? What measurements are you using to make that decision?
Thanks
-T

 

[jimmymac]

In what ways are they better? What measurements are you using to make that decision?
Thanks
-T

All I can do is tell you what I've discovered.

I have some 65 FB bullets that are outstanding. The guy that makes them is a one man show and it is obvious that great time and care was taken in the development and production of these bullets. The consistency in weight and BTO length is awesome with almost all the bullets falling between a half a thou of each other as best I can measure. Over 90% of the bullets I'm measuring go in to one of two piles with the half thousandth being the difference. They are so close I probably don't even have to do that, but it's winter time, so what the hell. The outliers get tossed into a third pile for fouling shots or fire forming duty even though those bullets are close too. These bullets are a significant step up from the Berger 68 FB which I've shot a good bit. These 65's flat out shoot and I believe they make me a better shooter. I wish I had 10,000 instead of 1300.

The flip side of this...I also have some other custom 65's, 66's and 68's by different manufacturers that are not as good in terms of measurable consistency as the 65's referenced above. One of these shoots marginally better than the Berger 68, another one is no better. The third is worse and honestly, that guy will never get my business again.

For point blank bench shooting the difference in cost is minimal to choose between custom or mass produced like Berger so I choose the custom rabbit hole.

 

[ClassCat]

All I can do is tell you what I've discovered.

I have some 65 FB bullets that are outstanding. The guy that makes them is a one man show and it is obvious that great time and care was taken in the development and production of these bullets. The consistency in weight and BTO length is awesome with almost all the bullets falling between a half a thou of each other as best I can measure. Over 90% of the bullets I'm measuring go in to one of two piles with the half thousandth being the difference. They are so close I probably don't even have to do that, but it's winter time, so what the hell. The outliers get tossed into a third pile for fouling shots or fire forming duty even though those bullets are close too. These bullets are a significant step up from the Berger 68 FB which I've shot a good bit. These 65's flat out shoot and I believe they make me a better shooter. I wish I had 10,000 instead of 1300.

The flip side of this...I also have some other custom 65's, 66's and 68's by different manufacturers that are not as good in terms of measurable consistency as the 65's referenced above. One of these shoots marginally better than the Berger 68, another one is no better. The third is worse and honestly, that guy will never get my business again.

For point blank bench shooting the difference in cost is minimal to choose between custom or mass produced like Berger so I choose the custom rabbit hole.

Different manufacturers,Different Ogives. Reamer, Barrel, Bullet compatibility. Think about that. Let me elaborate. I was out on Thursday trying to sort through some problems and couldn't get the gun to work to my satisfaction. I tried my bullets, a prominent manufacturer's, a good friend's bullet" Benchrest Hall of Fame shooter" and another Hall of Fame shooter's bullet.
The last bullet was the ticket. The only variation was The Ogive

 

[jimmymac]

Different manufacturers,Different Ogives. Reamer, Barrel, Bullet compatibility. Think about that

I'm not near smart enough to put all that together. I suspect the vast majority here aren't either. Hopefully I will be some day. My bullet selection was left to people more experienced than me, which seems reasonable. I just reported what I found along the way during my short journey.

In the end, the thing that has stuck out to me like a slap in the face is the part where I realized bullet A was measurably better than bullets B, C, D and E to varying degrees. Since bullet A also shoots better, I don't think that is a coincidence.

Like I said in my original post on this topic. I'm just a new guy. Take my opinion with a grain of salt.

 

[Tim Singleton]

Different manufacturers,Different Ogives. Reamer, Barrel, Bullet compatibility. Think about that. Let me elaborate. I was out on Thursday trying to sort through some problems and couldn't get the gun to work to my satisfaction. I tried my bullets, a prominent manufacturer's, a good friend's bullet" Benchrest Hall of Fame shooter" and another Hall of Fame shooter's bullet.
The last bullet was the ticket. The only variation was The Ogive

Sounds like the last bullet with the different ogive may have liked the seating depth you were at than the others
Unless you did go full the full seating depth spectrum with all of them

 

[ClassCat]

Sounds like the last bullet with the different ogive may have liked the seating depth you were at than the others
Unless you did go full the full seating depth spectrum with all of them

The usual generic test. Pet powder load 5 on the jam and 5, 15 off with all 4 bullets, then try to BACK UP THE BEST.

 

[Hengehold]

If you take measurements from "Base-to-Ogive" MOST customs are NO MORE than +\- 1 thousandths. The weight are usually kept to +\- 0.02grs. and the "Base-to-Tips" are usually less than 5 thousandths difference. About the only "Non-Custom" bullets made that are NOT custom and fit those tolerances are the Lapua Scenars. Yet I don't see Scenars shooting any better than Berger's!

Thank you for that explanation. That was exactly what I was looking for.

-T

 

[Hengehold]

After looking at Lapua’s website, I noticed that the Scenar-L is marketed as “being practically hand made.”

Is there a consensus among Scenar-L users that their quality and dimensional consistency are on par with the custom Bullets?

-T

 

[rkittine]

Will measuring and sorting get the production made projectiles like Scenar and Bergers, closer to the better custom built makers?

Bob

 

[SteveOak]

Design characteristics of the bullet, weight, shape, flat base or boat tail, rebated etc. aside, it is a question of quality, manufacturability and throughput.

Manufacturerability is when the product, in this case a bullet, can be reasonable made using the means, methods and equipment that the bullet makes has or can and is willing to acquire and/or develop.

Quality, in this case, is maintaining control over the materials and processes to make a bullet that is consistent in shape, weight and concentricity within the tolerances that the bullet maker determines as adequate.

Throughput is the number of bullets that can be made in a certain period of time.

A commercial manufacturer has many conflicting considerations to resolve and must have an eye, ultimately, on profitability.

For a large scale bullet manufacturer it is not practical to exercise the same level of quality control that a custom bullet maker can accomplish. Quality and throughput are at odds with each other.

A custom bullet maker can produce a bullet superior to what a large scale commercial bullet maker can.

Berger probably is the best among large commercial bullet makers. There are quite a few customer bullet makes that make better bullets than Berger.