Berger 6.5
- Thread starter TerryPohl
- Start date
The huntings are avail now at 3rd Gen Shooting.
If midways saying 3/8 after posting mid feb id git on the back order list now so you could possible have some for the start of shooting season.
Hillbilly
Hillbilly
I gave up on Berger Bullets irregular supply of the 130 & 140gr VLDs long ago. I now use Lapua Scenar 139gr and point them up for the higher BC. They are better priced and readily (always) available. The quality control is second to none as I discovered when pointing them. The length of the projectile is ultra consistent (needed for pointing) and now they offer their Scenar L projectiles with even better quality control.
I actually double point them using John Whidden's pointing tool and end up with a hybrid bullet. The Scenars are tangential ogive and I start with the No.0 pointing die insert for that type and then finish with the secant pointing die N0.1. Try it out and become a convert to the 139gr Scenars with a better price and more reliable supply. I use Berger Bullets in my 22BR (90gr VLD) and 284W (180gr VLD) but if they want my continued business then price and supply have to be improved!
Ian
I actually double point them using John Whidden's pointing tool and end up with a hybrid bullet. The Scenars are tangential ogive and I start with the No.0 pointing die insert for that type and then finish with the secant pointing die N0.1. Try it out and become a convert to the 139gr Scenars with a better price and more reliable supply. I use Berger Bullets in my 22BR (90gr VLD) and 284W (180gr VLD) but if they want my continued business then price and supply have to be improved!
Ian
The 6.5mm 130 gr and 140 gr Hunting bullets are made and are on the shelf. The 6.5mm 130 gr and 140 gr Target bullets are being made now and back orders have been shipping for a few weeks. The 120 gr and 100 gr Target bullets will soon follow.
I sincerely apologize for all the delays with the 6.5mm and can assure you that we have taken genuine and specific action to keep this from happening again. I completely understand the frustration of those who have been waiting for these bullets and am not surprised to hear that many of you have given up on us all together.
All I can say is that we have done our best to change things so that we can keep this from happening again. I ask that you keep an eye and ear out for reports on how we have improved our ability to more quickly replenish all of our line continuously. In time we will prove that we have not turned a deaf ear to those who have trusted us to keep them supplied and have been disappointed.
Regards,
Eric
I sincerely apologize for all the delays with the 6.5mm and can assure you that we have taken genuine and specific action to keep this from happening again. I completely understand the frustration of those who have been waiting for these bullets and am not surprised to hear that many of you have given up on us all together.
All I can say is that we have done our best to change things so that we can keep this from happening again. I ask that you keep an eye and ear out for reports on how we have improved our ability to more quickly replenish all of our line continuously. In time we will prove that we have not turned a deaf ear to those who have trusted us to keep them supplied and have been disappointed.
Regards,
Eric
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
I shoot 139 gr. Lapua Scenars in my 6.5x47, very consistent bullets and very accurate, specially at 300 yards! 
Erik Cortina said:I shoot 139 gr. Lapua Scenars in my 6.5x47, very consistent bullets and very accurate, specially at 300 yards!
An excellent bullet Eric - I use them myself more than any other model in my 6.5X55 - but they are deficient BC-wise compared to the 140gn Berger VLD, enough to make a difference at long ranges. Here's what Richard Huby, an old north of England F-Class shooting friend, now doing very well for himself both business and shooting wise in North Island New Zealand says:
By the way, a couple of weeks ago I had the opportunity for the Berger 140 VLD vs Scenar 139 showdown at 1000 yards. I had adjusted the powder charge to give identical velocities, 40.5 gns N550 for the Berger and 40 gns for the Scenar, for a muzzle velocity of 2920fps average for five shots (6.5x47). I fired a couple of sighters and had those shots only marked to give me a mean wind which was almost exactly 10 minutes right. I then fired six of each as fast I could, alternating betweeen the two but still looking for any gusts or let ups, but it was a fairly steady wind anyway. I had two markers in the butts with a plot sheet recording the fall of shot and numbering them as they came in. I then drove down to the butts and had a short measuring session. The result was a convincing victory for the Berger, almost exactly one minute upwind and 1.5 minutes higher on the target than the scenars, plus a nice tight knot of seven inches. The Scenars were more spread out into 11.5 inches. I had previously shot both at 200 yards in the same group alternatively to see if there would be any vertical difference, but they both shot into the same 5/8 spread, so I'm happy that any vertical difference is down to BC rather than barrel harmonics. I was thinking of getting one of the Whidden pointing dies to use on the Scenars, I think now, I'll just use the Bergers, assuming they keep the nice small meplat.
Running these figures through the Berger external ballistics program says this amount of drift would be caused by a 14.35 mph 90-degree equivalent wind and the movements seen by the two bullets are right on the money for Bryan Litz's G7 average BCs in Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting. I had been suggesting to Richard that he try the VLDs for some time, but he was reluctant as there is a huge local price difference in favour of the Lapua.
Incidentally, 2.920 fps and a seven-inch 1,000yd group - quite a testament to a well-built 6.5X47L rifle. I understand the cartridge is very popular 'down under' in F-Class and that the big sevens haven't taken the discipline over as they have in the UK (and driven a lot of people into F/TR because of the cost implications).
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
Do the Bergers have a higher BC? Yes they do, but BC is not everything. There are other factors such as accuracy, consistent bullet dimensions, availability, and probably the biggest one for me would be consistency between lots.
But I think it's 6 one way and half a dozen the other. We as shooters have the privilege of choosing from many excellent target bullets, at the end it just comes down to preference.
But then again, how good is a 140 gr. Berger if you can't buy them?
But I think it's 6 one way and half a dozen the other. We as shooters have the privilege of choosing from many excellent target bullets, at the end it just comes down to preference.
But then again, how good is a 140 gr. Berger if you can't buy them?
i got a bunch from powder valley with no problem? Keep getting the Lapua's for tgt guys i have real bad luck with them in the hunting department and save the Bergers for us! They are GREAT for hunting.
http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/
http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/
Very true. I'm lucky in that I laid in a large stock of 6.5s of various weights, makes and types some time back when I thought I was going to make a lot of use of a long-throated .260 Rem and factory Savage 12 F-Class 6.5-284 rifles, but neither of which worked out as expected.
The 'ScenarL' development seems to have caught me out only just seeing an advert for the 105gn 6mm in this form from the UK Lapua and Vihtavuori importer which I'm fortunate to have situated only 30 minutes' drive from where I live. I'll have to give them a ring and get some to try in my 6XC bench gun.
If you happen to own a gun that likes all bullets, you're laughing. I don't, and frankly never have.
I agree that 139 scenars are an extremely consistent bullet. One of the best for consistency, however i could not make then work accurately in both a 6.5 HABU and a 6.5-284. Berger bullets worked very well. The 140 VLD has the best BC going and they work the best. Hmmm. Choice seems clear for me anyway.
Make no mistake Berger has py$$ed me off with what they did to their 6mm VLD bullet (Going from the best to the worst BC in 6mm match bullets) , and these dry spells in availability have tied my hands more that once, but they are a very esy bullet to make work.
I agree that 139 scenars are an extremely consistent bullet. One of the best for consistency, however i could not make then work accurately in both a 6.5 HABU and a 6.5-284. Berger bullets worked very well. The 140 VLD has the best BC going and they work the best. Hmmm. Choice seems clear for me anyway.
Make no mistake Berger has py$$ed me off with what they did to their 6mm VLD bullet (Going from the best to the worst BC in 6mm match bullets) , and these dry spells in availability have tied my hands more that once, but they are a very esy bullet to make work.
I don't mean to be a hater on Berger bullets because I have shot some very good groups with them and killed a lot of big critters with them, but......... I am done with Berger bullets. It seems like the post from Berger shows up every year apologizing for their bullets not being available. Last year it was the 7mm bullets that were un-ub-tainium!! This coupled with having to change seating depths by as much as .095" lot to lot and the ever changing BC's I think they have lost their ablility to produce a consistant product.
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
It ain't just Berger... when I used to shoot a 6.5-08 match rifle, every year there was a time when S142MKs became unobtanium. Everybody and their brother started hoarding right before match season, and you would be SOL until Sierra made another run.
Even back then, Lapua Scenars were 'always available'. While I have shot some nice groups with 'em and have no problem with them in general... it does beg the question as to why they are seemingly never out of stock, whereas Berger, Sierra and even Hornady have perennial supply issues with their popular bullets. Does Lapua have something figured out that the others don't, or do they just not get used as heavily by the masses?
Even back then, Lapua Scenars were 'always available'. While I have shot some nice groups with 'em and have no problem with them in general... it does beg the question as to why they are seemingly never out of stock, whereas Berger, Sierra and even Hornady have perennial supply issues with their popular bullets. Does Lapua have something figured out that the others don't, or do they just not get used as heavily by the masses?
Monte,
I suspect one reason for Lapua availability is its relatively small range, both in calibres and designs, and modest rate of new introductions. If you take 0.224" for instance, Lapua did no heavy bullets at all when I started loading .223R 12 or 13 years ago, and in the intervening period has introduced 70gn and quite recently 77gn Scenars, but no 80 or anything heavier yet - very conservative when you think of how many years it is since others went to 80s.
As a pure paper-puncher, I can't comment on sporting bullets, but the article on the development of Lapua bullets for moose in the current Vihtavuori reloading manual shows that it was definitely a case of what my wife calls festina lente (make haste slowly) with new improved models evolving over long time periods. Despite many changes in ownership over the decades, Vihtavuori and Lapua have retained a workforce and management continuity of the type mostly seen in longstanding family owned businesses that span generations such as Hodgdon and Nosler that were once common in Britain and the US, but are increasingly rare.
You get the feeling Lapua gets all its ducks in a row design, quality and manufacturing capacity-wise before launching a product and then will stick with it a long time and really do the job well. Berger excites (and sometimes confuses) with its rate of product innovations but often struggles to supply and Sierra falls in the middle. The Lapua policy of keeping products going forever does lead to rather non-homogeneous ranges though. Take .30 cal Scenars. The newest, or at any rate least old, model is the 155gn which can stand comparison ballistically with all but the best competitors, a long design with an aggressive secant-form ogive and ideal boat-tail angle. This is probably still one of the two favourite British .308W handloader's match bullets (the other being the SMK largely on tradition and bolstered by the NRA buying German ammunition loaded with the old model #2155). The 167gn Scenar is very much in the mould of the traditional 168gn SMK and its clones from Speer and Nosler as an accurate no-fuss short-range bullet, also well suited to factory match ammunition. But the 185gn is one of the poorest ballistic performers in class, very disappointing when you consider the antediluvian Lapua 185gn stepped-boattail D46 FMJBT was years ahead of its competitors for decades and still no mean performer today. I keep telling British F/TR shooters who cannot get 185gn Berger BT L-R bullets not to use the 185gn Scenar for long-range shooting (or even at 500/600 on the tiny targets we now use). People just assume all 185s are ballistically similar.
I'm also intrigued by Lapua's 'ScenarL' project. This suggests the company is not satisfied with its present product quality. I don't think I've ever heard shooters complain about existing Scenar consistency, while they will sometimes about Berger, Hornady and Sierra bullets. But Lapua obviously thinks plain 'excellent' isn't good enough.
Sadly, the pound sterling has taken a huge hit against the Euro over the last five years. This has moved Lapua bullets from being as cheap as, often cheaper than, SMKs and A-Maxes say to being much dearer today over here. Allied to the rate of new Berger introductions and the high BCs of many of their new designs, this has affected Scenar sales in the UK although some models such as the 0.308" 155gn are still very popular.
Laurie,
York, England
PS one of our more entrepreneurial dealers / importers, the one-man (+ wife) Fox Firearms has just started importing the Australian BJD-HBC 0.308" 155gn HPBTM bullet into the UK. The surface finish is poor (less shiny) than the competition, but they have a solid reputation 'down under' and are very high BC. I'll test some soon. They come a bit cheaper than SMKs and very much cheaper than Lapua Scenar and Berger 155.5gn competitors on the UK market. If you or any of your team-mates want to take some home from Blair Atholl to try them, I'm sure Brian Fox will arrange supply for you either in person or with me as the 'mule'.
I suspect one reason for Lapua availability is its relatively small range, both in calibres and designs, and modest rate of new introductions. If you take 0.224" for instance, Lapua did no heavy bullets at all when I started loading .223R 12 or 13 years ago, and in the intervening period has introduced 70gn and quite recently 77gn Scenars, but no 80 or anything heavier yet - very conservative when you think of how many years it is since others went to 80s.
As a pure paper-puncher, I can't comment on sporting bullets, but the article on the development of Lapua bullets for moose in the current Vihtavuori reloading manual shows that it was definitely a case of what my wife calls festina lente (make haste slowly) with new improved models evolving over long time periods. Despite many changes in ownership over the decades, Vihtavuori and Lapua have retained a workforce and management continuity of the type mostly seen in longstanding family owned businesses that span generations such as Hodgdon and Nosler that were once common in Britain and the US, but are increasingly rare.
You get the feeling Lapua gets all its ducks in a row design, quality and manufacturing capacity-wise before launching a product and then will stick with it a long time and really do the job well. Berger excites (and sometimes confuses) with its rate of product innovations but often struggles to supply and Sierra falls in the middle. The Lapua policy of keeping products going forever does lead to rather non-homogeneous ranges though. Take .30 cal Scenars. The newest, or at any rate least old, model is the 155gn which can stand comparison ballistically with all but the best competitors, a long design with an aggressive secant-form ogive and ideal boat-tail angle. This is probably still one of the two favourite British .308W handloader's match bullets (the other being the SMK largely on tradition and bolstered by the NRA buying German ammunition loaded with the old model #2155). The 167gn Scenar is very much in the mould of the traditional 168gn SMK and its clones from Speer and Nosler as an accurate no-fuss short-range bullet, also well suited to factory match ammunition. But the 185gn is one of the poorest ballistic performers in class, very disappointing when you consider the antediluvian Lapua 185gn stepped-boattail D46 FMJBT was years ahead of its competitors for decades and still no mean performer today. I keep telling British F/TR shooters who cannot get 185gn Berger BT L-R bullets not to use the 185gn Scenar for long-range shooting (or even at 500/600 on the tiny targets we now use). People just assume all 185s are ballistically similar.
I'm also intrigued by Lapua's 'ScenarL' project. This suggests the company is not satisfied with its present product quality. I don't think I've ever heard shooters complain about existing Scenar consistency, while they will sometimes about Berger, Hornady and Sierra bullets. But Lapua obviously thinks plain 'excellent' isn't good enough.
Sadly, the pound sterling has taken a huge hit against the Euro over the last five years. This has moved Lapua bullets from being as cheap as, often cheaper than, SMKs and A-Maxes say to being much dearer today over here. Allied to the rate of new Berger introductions and the high BCs of many of their new designs, this has affected Scenar sales in the UK although some models such as the 0.308" 155gn are still very popular.
Laurie,
York, England
PS one of our more entrepreneurial dealers / importers, the one-man (+ wife) Fox Firearms has just started importing the Australian BJD-HBC 0.308" 155gn HPBTM bullet into the UK. The surface finish is poor (less shiny) than the competition, but they have a solid reputation 'down under' and are very high BC. I'll test some soon. They come a bit cheaper than SMKs and very much cheaper than Lapua Scenar and Berger 155.5gn competitors on the UK market. If you or any of your team-mates want to take some home from Blair Atholl to try them, I'm sure Brian Fox will arrange supply for you either in person or with me as the 'mule'.
I too have been down the berger route and I even emailed berger about obtaining some 130's an the answer I got was, it will be months, and we can't sell them at wholesale or a better price . I was told to contact there distributors because they could offer a better price to me on large quantitys. I explained to the guy that how long do I have to wait till Wideners gets them in ? So i gave up an told the guy I will buy custom an he stated that the jackets are made by berger and I would still be waiting . So I called around an found some jlk bullets . I havent found that berger is any better bullet for the money than any custom bullets out there. I just know that when I need bullets that I call 10x bullets or jlk or someone else that can supply them in a few weeks.
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