Berger 308 200 gr Hybrids & Varget

[boltman13]

I currently use Berger 185 gr Hybrids and Varget with my 1:10 twist barrel F-TR rifle. I have some of the 200 gr Hybrids coming and wonder if others are using Varget, and how much or other powders that work well. My barrel is 30'.

 

[Joe R]

I have been using Varget and the Berger 200 hybrids for about 18 months now in my 10 twist 32" Broughton. As you already know, having different chambers and barrels changes everything. So instead of telling you how much Varget you should use, IMO you should try to find the sweet spot somewhere between 2,680 and 2,700. Generally that's somewhere around 44.0-44.8 for most people. As always be sure to start with a few rounds at around 40.0 and work your way up. You don't want a surprise.

Joe

 

[gsg5pk]

I have been using Varget and the Berger 200 hybrids for about 18 months now in my 10 twist 32" Broughton. As you already know, having different chambers and barrels changes everything. So instead of telling you how much Varget you should use, IMO you should try to find the sweet spot somewhere between 2,680 and 2,700. Generally that's somewhere around 44.0-44.8 for most people. As always be sure to start with a few rounds at around 40.0 and work your way up. You don't want a surprise.

Joe

Wow

2,680-2,700 that pretty fast


I only run 185 Juggernaut around 2,700 out of 32" barrel.


What is the freebore you use with those 200 hybrid? Is it the new 200.20x hybrid?

 

[Down South]

Wow

2,680-2,700 that pretty fast


I only run 185 Juggernaut around 2,700 out of 32" barrel.


What is the freebore you use with those 200 hybrid? Is it the new 200.20x hybrid?

That speed Joe listed for 200s is pretty common among FTR shooters using Palma brass and Varget/H4895 in 32 inch barrels. As for freebore, anywhere from .170 to .210 ish works well depending on how much bullet you want being held in the neck.

 

[Joe R]

That speed Joe listed for 200s is pretty common among FTR shooters using Palma brass and Varget/H4895 in 32 inch barrels. As for freebore, anywhere from .170 to .210 ish works well depending on how much bullet you want being held in the neck.

You guys better listen to him. Jade's name is at the top of the NRA 20 shots at 1,000 yard 2015-6 National records.

Here's a picture of the target that Johnny Ingram just sent me. He is testing the 20X bullets. His name is in the NRA records list too. We can't make it any easier for you can we?

Having said that, even if Jade or Johnny gave their rifle and ammo, I wouldn't be able to shoot like this. There is such thing as Kinesthetic intelligence (look up Howard Gardner and Multiple Intelligence Theory). Some just have more than others. Just have fun and be the best rifleman you can be.

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

[kybountyhunter]

I too have been shooting the 200 hybrids since last year. From a 28" brux in 10.5 twist, .168FB, 43.4 varget at 2650. This is from my FTR rifle. Joe R & Down South are 100%correct in what they said about testing and finding the load that works for you and your rifle.

 

[JasonT]

Varget is a really consistent powder for me as well. It's especially good with the 175-185gr bullets.

I might also suggest RL17 if you want to push those 200gr hybrids at the same velocities with lower pressure. It's slightly temp sensitive, but it gives you a very wide range of accurate velocities under max pressure.

 

[boltman13]

Joe, and others, thank you for your posts. I guess I am way to the conservative side with my loads. I use 41.5 grs of Varget for my Berger 185 Hybrids for 2,643 fps with an ES of 37 fps for 20 shots, SD=4.3fps. This is with Lapua non Palma brass and BR-2 primers. The data comes from prior to the 2016 Berger SWN's on 1-5-16 and my range is at 4,700 feet. Base to ogive is 2.215" with a 0.015" jump. I have a Kreger 1:10 barrel at 30". As Joe suggested I will start at 40.0 grs with a 0.020" and 0.015" jump and see what that looks like. I will try for 2,700 fps, if accuracy shows consistant improvement and pressure signs allow but I really do not see me going to 44 grs of Varget at this time. Again, thanks for sharing.

 

[Joe R]

Joe, and others, thank you for your posts. I guess I am way to the conservative side with my loads. I use 41.5 grs of Varget for my Berger 185 Hybrids for 2,643 fps with an ES of 37 fps for 20 shots, SD=4.3fps. This is with Lapua non Palma brass and BR-2 primers. The data comes from prior to the 2016 Berger SWN's on 1-5-16 and my range is at 4,700 feet. Base to ogive is 2.215" with a 0.015" jump. I have a Kreger 1:10 barrel at 30". As Joe suggested I will start at 40.0 grs with a 0.020" and 0.015" jump and see what that looks like. I will try for 2,700 fps, if accuracy shows consistant improvement and pressure signs allow but I really do not see me going to 44 grs of Varget at this time. Again, thanks for sharing.

With that kind of freebore I'm pretty sure you'll make it to 2,700 without any pressure signs. I've gone as high as 2750 without pressure signs. However, get ready for your bipod to start jumping to the right because of the torque.

Here's another target of me exploring higher velocities



Joe

 

[Ned Ludd]

Joe, and others, thank you for your posts. I guess I am way to the conservative side with my loads. I use 41.5 grs of Varget for my Berger 185 Hybrids for 2,643 fps with an ES of 37 fps for 20 shots, SD=4.3fps. This is with Lapua non Palma brass and BR-2 primers. The data comes from prior to the 2016 Berger SWN's on 1-5-16 and my range is at 4,700 feet. Base to ogive is 2.215" with a 0.015" jump. I have a Kreger 1:10 barrel at 30". As Joe suggested I will start at 40.0 grs with a 0.020" and 0.015" jump and see what that looks like. I will try for 2,700 fps, if accuracy shows consistant improvement and pressure signs allow but I really do not see me going to 44 grs of Varget at this time. Again, thanks for sharing.

Boltman - what is your COAL with the 185 Hybrids? I ask because CBTO can vary quite a bit depending on the type of caliper insert you use. The reason I ask is I'm getting ready to load up some of the 200-20Xs in a rifle I had chambered to shoot the 185 Hybrids. Rifle has .180" freebore and a 30" barrel, similar to yours.

Using Palma brass and H4895, I'm getting 2775-2780 fps at the sweet spot with the 185 Hybrids. Unless there is something I'm missing, your load with the 185s is extremely conservative; ~140 fps slower than what I'm running in a similar barrel length. Only about 25-30 fps of that is likely to be due to H4895 vs Varget. I would expect a Varget load with 185 Hybrids in a 30" barreled rifle with suitable freebore to be in the 2750 fps range with no issues whatsoever in terms of pressure. I understand fully that lower pressure accuracy nodes are often very easy to tune and can give great precision, but you're leaving an awful lot on the table unnecessarily. Further, optimal combustion for a given powder typically takes place at a little under max pressure for that specific cartridge. So running full pressure loads can also be an advantage with regard to optimizing powder burn/combustion and thereby minimizing ES/SD.

In preparation for loading the 200-20Xs, I measured my chamber with the new bullets, created a bullet file in QL, and ran some numbers with Varget and H4895 (using factory preset burn rates) for a 30" barrel, 3.111" COAL, Palma brass (~56.1 gr case volume):

43.0 gr H4895: 61,686 psi 2674 fps
44.3 gr Varget: 61,934 psi 2658 fps

Note that both these were maximum predicted charge weights without going over SAAMI spec pressure (62,000 psi). Standard Lapua brass would give at least 5 firings under similar pressure loading, whereas Palma brass can take pressures in that range without any issues for much longer. Obviously, burn rates for specific powder Lots and COAL will have an impact on the actual numbers. In addition, these values are not necessarily associated with optimal precision, which needs to be determined empirically. They are simply rough "max load" predictions based on SAAMI pressure. However, they are also well within the optimized load parameters of what a number of people have reported using the 200 Hybrids and/or the new 200.20X. If you're interested, I'll be happy to let you know the actual values I obtain and how they look once I have "calibrated" the burn rates in QL for my setup. IMO - safety is always a good idea, especially when starting out on a new load/new bullet/etc. However, I try not to be conservative to the point I limit myself to using a lower node than one that is safely achievable.

 

[Down South]

Greg, my 200 hybrid load (not 200.20X) with H4895 is very close to what you just said QL predicted for your barrel etc.......I'm running 42.9 gr with a 32 inch barrel and speed is roughly 2685-2690 ish and QL says i'm right at 62,000 PSI......Can't remember off hand what the OAL was/is but my .170 freebore FTR reamer is what cut the chamber.

 

[paulT]

Hi Joe, what neck tension are you using and how far off Lands with your 44.6g varget Hybrid Load, Do you prefer very Light neck tension for the 200g weight bullets for FTR.

 

[Park ranger]

Gezz, my 185 juggernaut load on my M14 using Lapua brass is burning 42.0g of varget. Around 2500 fps.

 

[Ned Ludd]

M14 is a whole different animal than a 30" barreled bolt gun.

 

[johnnyi]

You guys better listen to him. Jade's name is at the top of the NRA 20 shots at 1,000 yard 2015-6 National records.

Here's a picture of the target that Johnny Ingram just sent me. He is testing the 20X bullets. His name is in the NRA records list too. We can't make it any easier for you can we?

Having said that, even if Jade or Johnny gave their rifle and ammo, I wouldn't be able to shoot like this. There is such thing as Kinesthetic intelligence (look up Howard Gardner and Multiple Intelligence Theory). Some just have more than others. Just have fun and be the best rifleman you can be.

Kindest regards,

Joe

View attachment 989949

From the photo and load data Joe posted....My freebore is a bit longer than those others posting load data. Mine is .215 freebore that has quite a few rounds down it ~1.5k.

 

[gsg5pk]

From the photo and load data Joe posted....My freebore is a bit longer than those others posting load data. Mine is .215 freebore that has quite a few rounds down it ~1.5k.

Wow very long freebore. What is your favor bullet weight with those freebore?

 

[johnnyi]

Wow very long freebore. What is your favor bullet weight with those freebore?

That was for the 210 JLK's.

 

[venatic]

So which load did Johnny settle on for the 200X bullet? Most all looked good from what I see.

 

[boltman13]

Again, my thanks to everyone for your time, thoughts, and experience. Gstaylorg my COAL with my 185 Hybrid load is 2.952". I get the feeling there is room for lots more powder behind the 185 Hybrids and even more if I only jump 0.010". For now I am going to see how much faster I can drive the 185's and what gives the best accuracy. Then I will see about the 200's later after hunting season or sometime next year. Bryan Litz's chapter in the Berger Loading Manual re: single loading longer than SAMI spec and with more powder and safe preasures also opened my eyes. Thanks again for sharing.

 

[boltman13]

After a great deal of effort I was able to satisfy myself that my current load is actually jumping almost 0.018" in my rifle. My plan is still to work up higher volumes of Varget and see what they look like on paper. Any added velocity not at the expense of accuracy, or better still improved accuracy as well will be my goal.