Berger 210 VLD vs 200 Hybrids for FTR or general long range target

[calgarycanada]

I didn't find any threads specifically comparing these two bullets, if there is one please post a link.
I have used 215s last year and had mixed results plus 215s are expensive up north. So I have decided to go with 200s or 210s. 200s are slightly more $$($6 per box more). Initially I thought about using new Hornady ELDs but I have heard they are not nearly as consistent bullets as Berger.
What are your thoughts on these two say precision and ease of tunability (if that's a word). I had hard time tuning 215s.
My use is mainly local FTR matches (300 to 900 meters) and long range target plinking.

What say you experts? Mr Litz's input will especially be much appreciated.

 

[Bryan Litz Ballistics]

I would lean toward the 200 grain Hybrid for the following reasons:

1. The 200 grain Hybrid has 4% less drag, as indicated by the G7 form factor (0.994 vs. 0.954). This isn't huge, but it's a benefit in favor of the 200.
2. Due to the lower drag of the lighter bullet, it's got nearly identical BC as the 210 VLD.
3. The 200 Hybrid has 0.119" less bearing surface than the 210 VLD (0.410" vs. 0.529"). This means the 200 will be seated farther out in the case for the same proximity to the riflings, leaving more internal case capacity for powder. This could be mitigated by throating the chamber out further for the 210 if you wanted to.
4. The 200 Hybrid is one of the most popular bullets being used by top FTR shooters including many on the US FTR Team. It's proven, whereas the 210 VLD isn't used by many shooters in the FTR application.

Good luck with whatever you choose!

-Bryan

 

[calgarycanada]

Thanks Bryan, much appreciate it. 200 it will be.

 

[paulT]

Found the 200g hybrids to be excellent for long range with my FTR rifle.

 

[wboggs]

Brian Did you win using 200 or 215's?

 

[savageshooter86]

215s

I shout the 200 hybrids. About finished with load work. Shows promise so far. Next is tuning final seating and barrel tuner. Then will see how it does

 

[mysticplayer]

I didn't find any threads specifically comparing these two bullets, if there is one please post a link.
I have used 215s last year and had mixed results plus 215s are expensive up north. So I have decided to go with 200s or 210s. 200s are slightly more $$($6 per box more). Initially I thought about using new Hornady ELDs but I have heard they are not nearly as consistent bullets as Berger.
What are your thoughts on these two say precision and ease of tunability (if that's a word). I had hard time tuning 215s.
My use is mainly local FTR matches (300 to 900 meters) and long range target plinking.

What say you experts? Mr Litz's input will especially be much appreciated.

I think you will find a few top FTR shooters at Homestead using 210gr VLD's. Some top Eastern Shooters using 210's too.

There are pros and cons to either bullet... from throating, powder choice, operating pressures, availability and price.

I am sure you guess that I have shot a bunch of 210's.. Been through the 185s, 200's on up.

All Berger options have had success so it really boils down to what you want to shoot and feel is best.

210's even pop up in F Open with very positive results.

Jerry

 

[Trevor60]

Because you are Canadian I will offer this other option do to availability of Berger products

Matrix ballistics makes a excellent 210 bullet. They are comparable to Berger 210 and available in the next province BC.

I have shoot the 210's with good results.
I have shot the last few season with the berger 200's and they are hard to beat...that being said i would not feel disadvantage if i shot the matrix 210.

 

[avidflyer]

I would lean toward the 200 grain Hybrid for the following reasons:

1. The 200 grain Hybrid has 4% less drag, as indicated by the G7 form factor (0.994 vs. 0.954). This isn't huge, but it's a benefit in favor of the 200.
2. Due to the lower drag of the lighter bullet, it's got nearly identical BC as the 210 VLD.
3. The 200 Hybrid has 0.119" less bearing surface than the 210 VLD (0.410" vs. 0.529"). This means the 200 will be seated farther out in the case for the same proximity to the riflings, leaving more internal case capacity for powder. This could be mitigated by throating the chamber out further for the 210 if you wanted to.
4. The 200 Hybrid is one of the most popular bullets being used by top FTR shooters including many on the US FTR Team. It's proven, whereas the 210 VLD isn't used by many shooters in the FTR application.

Good luck with whatever you choose!

-Bryan

What freebore have you found works well with the hybrid?

 

[calgarycanada]

Because you are Canadian I will offer this other option do to availability of Berger products

Matrix ballistics makes a excellent 210 bullet. They are comparable to Berger 210 and available in the next province BC.

I have shoot the 210's with good results.
I have shot the last few season with the berger 200's and they are hard to beat...that being said i would not feel disadvantage if i shot the matrix 210.

I have thought about matrix bullets but with their price almost same as 215 hybrids, why not stick with proven Bergers. Their prices are in US dollars, so box of 210 VLDs is like $67 something each.

 

[Trevor60]

Hi Calgary

That was surprising 67 is costly, i double checked and 1 box or 10 boxes it says the shipping and handling is the same.

If interested call Marshall he is a stand up guy and won't steer you wrong.

Trevor

 

[calgarycanada]

Hi Calgary

That was surprising 67 is costly, i double checked and 1 box or 10 boxes it says the shipping and handling is the same.

If interested call Marshall he is a stand up guy and won't steer you wrong.

Trevor

Sorry if I sounded cheap, well I am cheap but I don't wanna admit publicly. Whoops! I just did ;D ;D ;D
I was comparing with Berger prices, I don't have any personal experience with them whereas Berger has excellent track record. So my thinking was if I'm paying Berger price why not stick with something that has been proven by several thousand excellent shooters.
But thanks for the advice I will seriously look into trying some matrix bullets.

 

[paulT]

What angle to Lands did you guys choose with your barrels for the 200 hybrids for FTR also what node fps ranges work with the 200h for 1000y.

 

[mysticplayer]

When you have whichever one you choose loaded and shooting very well, the pain ($$$) will usually go away when you notice how far up the leaderboard you are .

If you have a copy of Quickload, I would suggest comparing bullets to get a handle on optimal barrel length and which OBT node you can realistically reach with the different bullets and your powder(s) of choice. Actual load development is obviously the final word; however, I have found Quickload very useful (and pretty accurate) for predicting whether I can reach a certain OBT node in terms of velocity with a given bullet/barrel length/powder. After carrying out those exercises for the 210s in my .308 F-TR guns, I'm pretty sure I can not reach the next higher node due to pressure issues. Because I use OBT nodes for loading purposes, that would likely limit me to the [much] slower node with the 210s. IFRC, the 200 predictions were much more favorable (i.e. the higher OBT node was within reach and very close to optimal for the powder and barrel I would be using).

There is a very accurate node for the 210's at 2600/2625fps. Proved in 6 barrels so it is showing a high degree of consistency.

Very similar to the 200's.

Jerry

 

[Trevor60]

Hi Calgary

That was surprising 67 is costly, i double checked and 1 box or 10 boxes it says the shipping and handling is the same.

If interested call Marshall he is a stand up guy and won't steer you wrong.

Trevor

Sorry if I sounded cheap, well I am cheap but I don't wanna admit publicly. Whoops! I just did ;D ;D ;D
I was comparing with Berger prices, I don't have any personal experience with them whereas Berger has excellent track record. So my thinking was if I'm paying Berger price why not stick with something that has been proven by several thousand excellent shooters.
But thanks for the advice I will seriously look into trying some matrix bullets.

No Worries

Berger has a great track record and if you can find them get them.

Hope to see you on the line some day
Trevor

 

[CH Luke]

When you have whichever one you choose loaded and shooting very well, the pain ($$$) will usually go away when you notice how far up the leaderboard you are .

If you have a copy of Quickload, I would suggest comparing bullets to get a handle on optimal barrel length and which OBT node you can realistically reach with the different bullets and your powder(s) of choice. Actual load development is obviously the final word; however, I have found Quickload very useful (and pretty accurate) for predicting whether I can reach a certain OBT node in terms of velocity with a given bullet/barrel length/powder. After carrying out those exercises for the 210s in my .308 F-TR guns, I'm pretty sure I can not reach the next higher node due to pressure issues. Because I use OBT nodes for loading purposes, that would likely limit me to the [much] slower node with the 210s. IFRC, the 200 predictions were much more favorable (i.e. the higher OBT node was within reach and very close to optimal for the powder and barrel I would be using).

There is a very accurate node for the 210's at 2600/2625fps. Proved in 6 barrels so it is showing a high degree of consistency.

Very similar to the 200's.

Jerry

Interesting. My rifle is chambered for the 185 Juggs and 200 hybrids. This year I spent all my time at 600. Found a wonderful node around 2825-35 with the Juggs. Sounds like I would give up 150+ fps in the move up to the 200 hybrids?

My plans for next year are to travel much more and compete at 1000 yards hopefully 4-5 times. With no less than Bryan recommending the 200 hybrids they are becoming the center of my focus for load development.

Here's my real question: is there a rule of thumb for 1000 yards comparing the benefits of weight, BC and velocity at say 10-15 mph winds that would offer a guideline supporting the decision to move to 200 hybrids? Or more simply, is there a way to solve for the minimum speed I would need to get out of the 200's to surpass the expected performance of the 185's. Suspect I might hear "buy Quickload" or something similar.

Thanks.

 

[CH Luke]

Would have ordered 200 hybrids already but they don't appear to be available anywhere at 500 count. Anyone have tips on how to buy Berger volumes in one lot code?

As I'm planning ahead for winter BTO sorting I think it would be wise to try to stay in the same lot code as much as possible.

 

[Jdne5b]

Would have ordered 200 hybrids already but they don't appear to be available anywhere at 500 count. Anyone have tips on how to buy Berger volumes in one lot code?

As I'm planning ahead for winter BTO sorting I think it would be wise to try to stay in the same lot code as much as possible.

Every time I've ordered more than 100 from Powder Valley, I've received the same Lot. I would call them, maybe they can take your order over the phone and ensure it's all one lot.

 

[mysticplayer]

When you have whichever one you choose loaded and shooting very well, the pain ($$$) will usually go away when you notice how far up the leaderboard you are .

If you have a copy of Quickload, I would suggest comparing bullets to get a handle on optimal barrel length and which OBT node you can realistically reach with the different bullets and your powder(s) of choice. Actual load development is obviously the final word; however, I have found Quickload very useful (and pretty accurate) for predicting whether I can reach a certain OBT node in terms of velocity with a given bullet/barrel length/powder. After carrying out those exercises for the 210s in my .308 F-TR guns, I'm pretty sure I can not reach the next higher node due to pressure issues. Because I use OBT nodes for loading purposes, that would likely limit me to the [much] slower node with the 210s. IFRC, the 200 predictions were much more favorable (i.e. the higher OBT node was within reach and very close to optimal for the powder and barrel I would be using).

There is a very accurate node for the 210's at 2600/2625fps. Proved in 6 barrels so it is showing a high degree of consistency.

Very similar to the 200's.

Jerry

Interesting. My rifle is chambered for the 185 Juggs and 200 hybrids. This year I spent all my time at 600. Found a wonderful node around 2825-35 with the Juggs. Sounds like I would give up 150+ fps in the move up to the 200 hybrids?

My plans for next year are to travel much more and compete at 1000 yards hopefully 4-5 times. With no less than Bryan recommending the 200 hybrids they are becoming the center of my focus for load development.

Here's my real question: is there a rule of thumb for 1000 yards comparing the benefits of weight, BC and velocity at say 10-15 mph winds that would offer a guideline supporting the decision to move to 200 hybrids? Or more simply, is there a way to solve for the minimum speed I would need to get out of the 200's to surpass the expected performance of the 185's. Suspect I might hear "buy Quickload" or something similar.

Thanks.

How heavy a bullet you want or need to shoot? That is something only you and your shoulder can decide

I have found that the heavier a bullet I go, there are significant improvements in my scores and my ability to keep the groups centered.

Now they are most certainly not for everyone and every rifle/bipod. I have evolved my entire rifle design to cater to the heaviest bullets.

But if changes are made, the heaviest bullets are as consistent as the lighter.

And I feel out at 1000yds, the heavy bullet is "easier" to steer

YMMV

Jerry

 

[willbas]

I have been testing the 210 and 200 I am going with the 200. I found a set up that I like at 2583 FPS and this is a 4 round shoot group at 100 yards.