Benchrest Barrels - New Stuff

[StephenPerry]

Benchrest Barrels
Benchrest barrels is a wide open topic but I will get it started. I can only deal with short range barrels because that is all I do.
In early benchrest say before 1950 the idea of a benchrest gun and barrel could only be described as hard to come by. Barrels were made in short runs and even then matching an action, stock usually wood and a scope required a better smith than most today. A good barrel was never going to show its merit without a correctly bedded stock that required bedding when needed. You had better make your smith happy because he might be the only one that knows your gun. Today most shooters see their smith once for the gun and go elsewhere for new barrels.
A good read on barrel making is in The Accurate Rifle by Warren Page. The 2 selections by Clyde Hart and Ed Shilen describe the equipment and technique needed to make benchrest barrels. The web pages of Krieger, Hart, Shilen, Lilja, Broughton, Spencer, Douglas, Bartlein, etc have some good info on selection and prices.
The benchrest barrels of the near past include Pride, McMillan, H-S, Matco/Sherer, Remington, Broughton, Atkinson, Dewey, Apex and others.
Very admirable in my book is to continue the barrel making process. Young bloods and older machinists are turning out barrels that match up with shooting disciplines in LR and Score. Some of these are Pac Nor, Kostyshyn, Schneider, European and Australian barrel makers I have no clue but they are good. Canadians have some good barrel makers but again I know not. The shooting world is blessed with craftsman in all the far corners. Don't be surprised if their aren't Chinese gunsmiths that someday will fill our minds with their idea of the accurate barrel and benchrest rifle, they make enough lathes and have a good supply of our good steel.
This barrel Thread should keep going. Be nice to me as I am seeking to learn here also.
Stephen Perry

 

[kitsap]

Stephen,

I cannot imagine anyone being anything but nice to you! You have been gracious in sharing your knowledge in several thoughtful and well written posts. I am waiting to see what replies this one brings.

 

[StephenPerry]

Kit
I am a kitten with claws. Hope to only use the claws for climbing. But. Editor has been more than fair to me. I really enjoy what I write. I am seeking shooters who can help out to make this Forum a first class shooting info clinic. We have a good format here and interest is building. Wanting to see what another year will do here.
Stephen Perry

 

[wildcat284]

Hi Stephen,

Please keep contributing to the forum because I like what you write. I'm not a BR shooter, I love the long range varmint game instead but even so I find your articles a great read.

Kind regards,

Michael.

 

[StephenPerry]

Michael
I like the LR game. I don't have the gun now but who knows. The only thing I have for LR would be my 6 Rem. I would need a lot of help on setting a scope up for 600/1000. If I get in I would probably go with the 6 BR and 6.5 X 284. My shooting buds at San Gabriel could cut my learning curve allot. But for now short range BR is where I am at. I live 300 miles from the Sacramento Range.
Stephen Perry

 

[Asa_Yam]

Michael
I like the LR game... But for now short range BR is where I am at. I live 300 miles from the Sacramento Range.

Stephen,
There are more position matches at 600 to 1000 yards than there are benchrest ones. No flames intended - just the truth. Take up shooting F-Class at a long range prone match sometime - you have most of the gear you need already.

One of the biggest "secrets" to any long range game,benchrest, highpower, silhouette, or blackpowder) is that equipment will only get you so far. Shooter experience matters a lot more. IIRC, Jerry Tierney had been shooting benchrest for less than 2 years when he walked away with a pile of awards at the 1000 yard Benchrest Nationals in Sacramento. His secret? He'd been shooting long range for over 20 years, and practices on the Sacramento range about 3x/ week.

Back on topic: Barrels. Making a good one is a matter of the materials, tools, and care used in making the finished product. You can take shortcuts in the process, i.e., not reaming after gun drilling, or not stress relieving after button rifling. The shortcuts are one reason why a Douglas or Shilen shoots better than say, an Adams and Bennett,only using A&B as an example - I have no clue as to how they actually make their product).

New barrel makers are constantly appearing. Within the last three years, I'm aware of at least three that have developed good reputations after seemingly appearing from nowhere. One sad truth about barrel making is that it isn't something to be done on a lark, as the tooling is fairly specialized.

Quick overview of the barrel making process,for button, broached, and cut rifled barrels):

Gun Drill - One of the most critical portions, as the drill bit is a rather flexible item, and has very little support,other than the flush lubricant) while it drills. The distance can be fairly significant: boring a .22 caliber hole in a 28" long barrel blank means you're trying to make a hole that is 127 times longer than it is wide. This is the main reason why it is impossible to buy a barrel blank where the bore is centered down the entire length of the tube.

Ream - Once gun drilling is finished, you want to remove the internal tool marks. A pass with a bore reamer helps accomplish this.

Rifle - Putting in the grooves. Three common ways to do this for accurate barrels are to button,push or pull a carbide button through the steel, displacing metal to create the grooves); broach,pull a file-like cutter through the bore. Very fast - the rifling is shaped in one broach pass - and reasonably precise, but getting a broach made is a fairly expensive proposition); and cut-rifle,pull a cutter head or heads multiple times through the bore, removing a small amount of metal per pass - extremely precise, but very slow).

Stress relieve - Required for accurate button rifled barrels, as the rifling process introduces stresses that can distort bore diameter when the barrel is profiled.

Lap - Using reasonably fine polishing compound,embedded in a lead "button", remove tool marks left by the rifling process by abrasion.

Marking - Good barrelmakers mark the product. Typical information includes bore diameter and rifling twist. Reputable barrel makers will also include some type of lot information to help identify when the barrel was made, and who it was sold to. The traceability of the product is vital - the barrel maker that says he has never made a bad barrel either hasn't made a lot of barrels, hasn't been in business very long - or is lying to you to make the sale.

 

[StephenPerry]

Asa
All I know is what I see at San Gabriel. Lot these guys shoot other places. At San Gabriel they shoot 200/300. I could get involved with my 6 Rem and my .223. Not looking for glory just another shoot at my Club. Nobody is saying anything about my barrel Thread. Need some discussion.
Stephen Perry

 

[M700]

Barrels - the black art of rifle making! I don't know how they make these things, or what makes one barrel shoot so much better than another...

Will swear up and down though that the Krieger Palma barrels I've used the past few years for my .308 Model 70 highpower rifle are superb! Very little fouling, I don't clean during a two-day 600 yard match with at least 66 shots each day. The rifle is still shooting tight on the last string of 20 on the second day.

I think the biggest lesson I had to learn about custom barrels is that they're disposable! They're like tires. Some are great, some are not so great. They all wear out. Some faster than others.

No keen insights here - but I sure do like to learn more about barrels. Recently picked up an Obermeyer Palma barrel. Not sure if I should put it on the rifle, or hang it above the fireplace, show it off to my friends and toast it from time to time.

Regards, Guy

 

[JerryW]

On this barrel subject, what does anyone think about slugging a new barrel? Find the tightest spot and make that the muzzle.

I got a new barrel last year and could not get it to shoot. Period. Over the winter I took it off and pushed some slugs through it. About 3-1/2" from the muzzle there was a tight spot. After the tight spot I think the slug would have fallen out on it's own, it was that loose.

I cut it off at the tight spot, recrowned it and went shooting. Right from the start, it shot better than it did the whole previous season. I didn't change anything else. Of course, now I'm afraid to shoot it in a match because it's only 18" long. Probably unfounded, but I'm sure I'm giving up a lot of velocity.

Comments anyone?

Jerry

 

[sparker]

If we find any such dimensional changes in my barrels, we send them back to the barrel maker.

 

[jroneal]

Stephen,

What information regarding barrels are you looking for in particular?

JR

 

[StephenPerry]

JR
I started this Thread to give everyone a chance to talk about the barrels they use and new ones some of us don't know. If you want to talk Border barrels please do I'm interested. JR in particular do you do Varmint calibers, stainless and chrome moly and some twist info.
Stephen Perry

 

[StephenPerry]

Anybody got some time in with the Bartlein barrels especially the BR barrels. Give us a review with this hot barrel company.
Stephen Perry

 

[StephenPerry]

Snake River Barrels
I bought a Snake River barrel from Denny Andrews several years back. My smith had bought one and shot it very well in a Sporter. Mine is a 1.35 chambered in 6 PPC. I keep shooting it in a Rail when I get chance. Shot it at the Raton NBRSA Nats this year. Shoots fine but I can't control the vertical in 10 shot groups. My smith said keep shooting it. It is a button rifled barrel and he told me some take a 1000 bullets to break them in. A thousand rounds would be fine if it comes around. Problem is I have so many 1.35 barrels that I don't know how long I have to wait. Some of you guys know it takes low .2 agg in 10 shot at 100 or 200 to be in the hunt.
I will put the Snake back in my under slung and just put my 22 PPC Krieger back on my other rail. I will shoot them side by side and see if I can make some sense out of the Snake.

I read what Boyd wrote about the average BR barrel only having 1000 rd accuracy. Boyd is a nice guy information collector not a BR shooter. Go to 'The Benchrest Shooting Primer' and read the first article on the Super Shoot Interview. Here let a couple HOF guys and the best action maker of his time talk about effective barrel life accuracy. I don't need to slam anybody's 1000 round average for BR accuracy these guys will do it for me. I still have a 22 PPC Hart barrel with 15000 rounds that will shoot 1's and average in the 2's. Let it be Said Let it be Done.
Stephen Perry

 

[chino1969]

Steve,
The barrels that I have experience with are Douglas, Pac-Nor, and Hart. I shoot live varmint and informal bench. I have a 1-10" Douglas chambered in .243 A.I. that is a good shooter. It is capable of 5 shot groups @200 meters in the low .3's; and this is with over 1500 hot rounds down the tube! I'm just starting to break in one of three Pac-Nors that I have in various calibers on a switch barrel rig and early indications show these barrels to be shooters as well. The Pac-Nors look very good with the borescope whereas the Douglas is a little rougher but this doesn't mean the Douglas won't shoot. I have a two 1-14" Hart light varmint barrels on two different rifles. One is on a Rem. 40X single shot 6mm BR and the other is on a Rem. 700 .22-250 A.I.. Both Harts are very good barrels. I have several factory barrels but nothing to brag about except a heavy barrelled Sako Vixen in .223. The Sako is the most accurate factory rifle I've ever owned. I'm thinking about giving Bartlein a try for my next project.
Chino69

 

[BoydAllen]

Snake River barrels were button rifled. I have to wonder about a gunsmith that would tell you that cut barrels sometimes take 1,000 rounds to break in, particularly considering what the typical accuracy life of a 6PPC barrel is.

 

[caroby]

Snake River barrels were button rifled. I have to wonder about a gunsmith that would tell you that cut barrels sometimes take 1,000 rounds to break in, particularly considering what the typical accuracy life of a 6PPC barrel is.

Yes quite absurd...1000 rounds???..!

Ok, one thing I have learned through trial and lottsa error!

Reamer quality!
Sharp and concentrically sharp for all the flutes!!!
With the quality barrels being made today and Overwhelming most of the makers are OUTSTANDING...They gotta, tough competition!
The quality of the internal finish is so good and consistent that heck, they ARE broke-in.
Back to the finish chamber reamer. This is the one item that is typically overlooked. DON'T....!
If ya depend on your smith for the reamer that cuts your chamber, ask for his HONEST opinion on it current cutting quality.
Short story, if all the flutes push chips and "squirly springy" continual chips coming off the reamer uniformly. Also that the reamer feeds/feels smooth as the cutting goes, then it "should" be cutting ya a fine chamber with minimum burrs on the down wind side of the lands.Also that the throat leade is a concentric cone to the bore.
Burrs are a given, it's the size that matters... Thick smeared burrs from dull non-concentric reamers make the shooter "think" that their barrel is defective! When it's the chamber throat/reamer sub performance...
How to resolve.....
BUY YOUR OWN REAMER and keep track of its life.
Keep it sharp and treat it with kit gloves!
If you do this, it'll take care of you!
WORTH EVERY PENNY MY FRIENDS!

Take your most favorite chamberings and buy the finish reamers for yourself. Smiths typically respect this from their customers.
Keeps wear off there reamers as well.

Good shoot'n
CaleR

 

[bmx]

Cale

AMEN!!!!!
You ever watch Burton get nervous when I'm running my thumb over "our" pet BR reamer??????

Dave

 

[USAPatriot]

Cale what I know about reamers can be fit right here on this little dot -> . <-

That said, just how much sharpening can any tool take before the dimension changes?

Maybe a primer on reamers, with photos, would be in order. Most of us are NOT machinists. -Rod-

 

[AlNyhus]

Rod: when a reamer is re-sharpened, it's 'pulled back' to the original dimensions. Reamers are made with extra material at the back end to allow this. In other words, the 'back end' of a reamer is not the absolute 'back end' of the chamber. If you go to the PTG site and look at a reamer picture, you'll see...this is one of those 'a picture is worth a thousand words' things.

Hope this helps.