Thank you. I'm wondering...can you use a device like a lead sled as a means to determine how accurate your rifle is by providing a control or constant? In other words, as a means to reduce some human input that may have an influence you don't want? I know as you said you won't learn much about shooting from your shoulder and/or on your feet when shooting from a bench, but as an instrument for testing with more accuracy from one shot to the next?
Beginner's first range day results
- Thread starter Timmis2
- Start date
Coyotefurharvester
Silver $$ Contributor
Standing with a clamp on head on the tripod? AR require a different shooting technique than a bolt gun. And standing tripod the rifle needs to balance decently, you would have the rifle attached just in front of the mag well.
CF Junkie
Gold $$ Contributor
When Eley tests ammo for lot measurements, they use a fixture. A very rigid arrangement that doesn't allow any movement.
Les Baer, when manufacturing high grade ARs, used to use a fixture to test accuracy. My .223 Super Varmint had two test targets at 100 yards with 5 rounds of 77 gr Federal Gold Medal Match ammo that measured 0.125 and 0.106. They were shot with a fixture. Les Baer ARs were guaranteed to shoot 5 rounds to 1/2 MOA with factory ammo and the test targets proved it. My Les Baer, after some practice, averaged in low 0.4 MOA for all the groups it shot. It cost about $2,500 in 2014.
Benchrest competition shooters have very expensive set ups that allow them to set up their aim point very accurately and hold it. They don't touch the rifle, other than the trigger - usually set for a few tenths of an ounce - and let the incredibly heavy rifle free-recoil. Then the go through a very careful aiming process and do it all again. I know a national benchrest champion whose rifle and rests cost more than $30,000.
That kind of expense is not in my league.
Lead sleds just aren't that rigid - the whole sled moves under recoil so they have to be re-aimed for each shot. Re-aiming is the difficult part.
I have never been able to use a lead sled effectively to test accuracy. I could never get the sled back into the exact same position every time, so the change in position (even when it looked like it was still in the same position) had significant effects on POI. Since you can't get into the actual shooting position when the rifle is in the sled, you can't get precisely behind the scope to ensure you are actually aiming at the same aim point.
Most people who I know lead sleds use them to test heavy recoiling rifles that they use for hunting and which would wear out their shoulders when they were load testing.
In my experience, being 1/8 of an inch off in eye relief causes a 1/4 inch deviation in POI at 100 yards. And being to the right or left of the optical plane of the scope will cause a deviation in POI as well, usually far more than 1/4 of an inch. The problem is every time that happened, I thought I was aiming at the correct aim point. The mis-alignment with the optical plane of the scope or the change in eye relief distance caused the rifle to be off the desired aim point, even if the reticle appeared to be right on.
I have never been able to control aiming to that degree with a lead sled.
Les Baer, when manufacturing high grade ARs, used to use a fixture to test accuracy. My .223 Super Varmint had two test targets at 100 yards with 5 rounds of 77 gr Federal Gold Medal Match ammo that measured 0.125 and 0.106. They were shot with a fixture. Les Baer ARs were guaranteed to shoot 5 rounds to 1/2 MOA with factory ammo and the test targets proved it. My Les Baer, after some practice, averaged in low 0.4 MOA for all the groups it shot. It cost about $2,500 in 2014.
Benchrest competition shooters have very expensive set ups that allow them to set up their aim point very accurately and hold it. They don't touch the rifle, other than the trigger - usually set for a few tenths of an ounce - and let the incredibly heavy rifle free-recoil. Then the go through a very careful aiming process and do it all again. I know a national benchrest champion whose rifle and rests cost more than $30,000.
That kind of expense is not in my league.
Lead sleds just aren't that rigid - the whole sled moves under recoil so they have to be re-aimed for each shot. Re-aiming is the difficult part.
I have never been able to use a lead sled effectively to test accuracy. I could never get the sled back into the exact same position every time, so the change in position (even when it looked like it was still in the same position) had significant effects on POI. Since you can't get into the actual shooting position when the rifle is in the sled, you can't get precisely behind the scope to ensure you are actually aiming at the same aim point.
Most people who I know lead sleds use them to test heavy recoiling rifles that they use for hunting and which would wear out their shoulders when they were load testing.
In my experience, being 1/8 of an inch off in eye relief causes a 1/4 inch deviation in POI at 100 yards. And being to the right or left of the optical plane of the scope will cause a deviation in POI as well, usually far more than 1/4 of an inch. The problem is every time that happened, I thought I was aiming at the correct aim point. The mis-alignment with the optical plane of the scope or the change in eye relief distance caused the rifle to be off the desired aim point, even if the reticle appeared to be right on.
I have never been able to control aiming to that degree with a lead sled.
I keep telling people theres a reason why (Most) factory ammo cannot be counted on for accuracy
the ES numbers are simply one of the many reasons
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That Lake City Ammo he listed though, I'm glad to see held up with LC reputation
that's true. It was clamped to a free-floating handguard which twists by 1 or 2 degrees.
With a decent AR-15 you can get surprisingly good accuracy. After messing with a Colt Sporter for 20 years without ever getting it to shoot particularly well, I started over with an AR that I built specifically for High Power Service Rifle shooting. Assembled the lower half myself, with a Geissele Hi-Speed 2-stage SR trigger, then paired it with a Rock River Arms National Match upper with floated barrel, and it shoots under 1 MOA all day long.
Our club has a whole stable full of similar rigs for our junior team, and they all shoot about as well as mine.
I also have an Eagle Arms (Armalite) E-15 shorty (16") that shoots darn near as well as my RRA NM rifle.
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