Beginner's first range day results

[Timmis2]

I'm a total beginner. I went to my local range today trying to be organized and not waste ammo. The range is in the back of a gun shop and only 25 yards with 13 pistol bays and 3 rifle bays. The rifle bays were full but they let me use a pistol bay which doesn't have a bench but I brought a hunting tripod and used that. I had already bore sighted the rifle so I was able to zero my scope in about 5 bullets. My scope is a Vortex LPVO 1-4x with a 1 MOA red dot BDC reticle. My rifle (AR) is a Stag 15 I bought new in 2013 but never shot it before. I stashed away 12 different kinds of 223 and 5.56 ammo over the years to use with it. I bought some targets from optics planet and wrote down each ammo type above each target beforehand. I shot 5 rounds of each ammo. I used a chronograph for each shot and took notes for DOPE to use later. When I got home I measured the groups center to center with calipers and calculated the MOA for 25 yards. I was a little disappointed that none of the groups were sub-MOA but I guess shooting a rifle for the first time standing up with a tripod isn't the best measure of a rifle's accuracy, or your own. I think I can do better with a bench rest. My Dad gave me his lead sled and I'll use that next time. I heard someone say that a basic mil-spec factory AR15 is a "2-3 MOA rifle" and if that's true than maybe I did ok for my first time. I know a little about the fundamentals of marksmanship but haven't practiced them enough yet but I intend to. I will shoot from a bench next time to see if my groups improve. The ammo is mostly cheap stuff so maybe I shouldn't get my hopes up. It was really fun though. I was there for almost 4 hours writing down the muzzle velocities, extreme spread, and standard deviation and trying to figure out which ammo did well. I'd like to eventually zero for maximum point blank range for a 6 inch target which will be somewhere around 50 yards. I wanted to try to figure out which ammo to use for that which is why I recorded all the DOPE. When it gets warmer out I can shoot outdoors at longer ranges to practice more and verify things. If any of these groups and DOPE is any indication of where to begin to develop a load for this rifle, I'd like to reload for it in the future.


Forum Boss: Groups are shot at 25 yards

 

[PatMiles]

Nicely done sir!

 

[Forum Boss]

The ES numbers you list (even for factory ammo) are ridiculously high for the majority of ammo types. FYI, once you start handloading you would hope to see ES under 20 fps.

I initially thought the groups looked decent, and then I saw they were at 25 yards. You had a couple decent groups, but you really can't conclude much. Honestly some of those groups are pretty darn bad at 25.

For precision target work you'll want a scope with more magnification, but honestly, I think this is just an average (at best) production AR.

 

[Kevin1990]

Well, you definitely have the documentation aspect of all of this down, but you are correct, standing with a tripod is not conducive to accuracy. Also, sometimes high ES and SD don’t mean squat at shorter ranges. I would focus on group size, but those numbers are good to have. Case in point, the PMC Bronze looks to be grouping very well but has high ES. I shoot at a club that is 200 yards, and they have shot markers, and at the end of the day they usually post everyone's numbers in an Excel spreadsheet, and one guy shooting an AR with Fed GMM ammo always has high ES and SD and shoots better than a lot of guys there.


I'd find a bench and try the ones that grouped the best. Then I'd get a higher magnification scope and see where that takes you. Good job for your first time out! That said, I think your expectations of 2–3 MOA at 100 yards are well within reason, and if you find a bullet the gun likes, it should be very doable.


I started shooting with ARs when I first started shooting and reloading and shot a metric ton with them. I was always unsatisfied and wanted more in the accuracy department, so I stopped trying to get blood from a stone and moved up to custom bolt guns. Still enjoy shooting semis though.

 

[Timmis2]

The ES numbers you list (even for factory ammo) are ridiculously high for the majority of ammo types. FYI, once you start handloading you would hope to see ES under 20 fps.

I initially thought the groups looked decent, and then I saw they were at 25 yards. You had a couple decent groups, but you really can't conclude much. Honestly some of those groups are pretty darn bad at 25.

For precision target work you'll want a scope with more magnification, but honestly, I think this is just an average (at best) production AR.

I hope things will improve from a bench with some heavy bags or a lead sled. A tripod is nice but my 1 MOA red dot was a little shaky. I had some real flyers in some groups. A few kinds of ammo I used were manufactured in 2012 and 2013 but I'm not blaming old ammo for my performance. My chronograph picked up a few shots from the people shooting in the bay next to mine. It's possible some of that data got screwed up that way or I may have had the Chrono too close to the muzzle. First time using that too.

 

[GetReal]

Wecome to the rabbit hole.

 

[jimmymac]

I would not read too much into it. Next time, consider losing the chronograph, shoot from a bench and concentrate on learning repeatable shooting technique.

 

[GetReal]

I will say that the AR15 in 223 has been one of my most frustrating precision shooting experiences, in terms of group size and velocities. Best just to have fun with that gun in that caliber ... 3 gun and A zone torso hits at distance.

 

[GetReal]

If you want more precision from the AR15 platform, I found it in 6 ARC and 300 Ham'r.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Sounds like a fun day at the range!

 

[K22]

Welcome to the shooting sports.

The first issue I would address is your goals for shooting and / or expectations. For example: competition, hunting, defense, recreation, etc. This will go a long way in guiding you toward the type of equipment you need, shooting style, precision requirements, etc.

In addition, learning basic safety and marksmanship skills are essential. If possible, here a mentor would be invaluable. Absent that possibility, there are creditable resources to help in this endeavor. The one I consider the best in the Army Marksmanship Manual. Also, the NRA has several excellent resources for beginners.

Best wishes as you pursue this hobby. Be safe and have fun.

 

[Syncrowave]

If you want to learn how to shoot, I'd suggest finding a decent local range where they shoot High Power / Service Rifle matches, even if informal ones (like my local range). This will teach you good technique for shooting with and without the aid of a sling in prone, sitting and offhand (standing) positions. These are essential skills for any rifleman — hunter, military or whatever. Then, once you get into it and start competing formally, you'll be shooting XTC at 200yd offhand, 300yd sitting and 600yd prone. You'll be surprised at what you can do at those ranges.

In the meantime, the US Army Marksmanship Unit has some good videos on rifle shooting fundamentals that are helpful for beginners breaking into High Power shooting. I have them on DVD and they're very good.

IMHO, shooting off a bench doesn't really teach you much beyond "shooting off a bench." The other stuff will teach you how to use a sling, how to build good solid bone-supported positions, the importance of follow-through and natural point of aim, breath and trigger control, etc etc etc etc. Half the game of shooting well is confidence, and once you see what you're capable of doing (even with a 223 AR-15), it'll help give you the confidence, patience and perseverance to "do your part," as they say, to shoot small groups with big scores.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

The ES numbers you list (even for factory ammo) are ridiculously high for the majority of ammo types. FYI, once you start handloading you would hope to see ES under 20 fps.

I initially thought the groups looked decent, and then I saw they were at 25 yards. You had a couple decent groups, but you really can't conclude much. Honestly some of those groups are pretty darn bad at 25.

For precision target work you'll want a scope with more magnification, but honestly, I think this is just an average (at best) production AR.

ES from a 223/5.56 under 20 fps is awfully optimistic. Just an inherent design flaw unfortunately.

but yeah those ES numbers can definitely be improved upon with better ammo/handloading

 

[dellet]

@Timmis2 good for you for getting out and shooting after all this time. Not sure this applies to you but, millions bought firearms at that time and still haven’t learned to use them. It’s never too late.

With good help, you can learn almost everything you need to learn in 25-50 yards. Basic fundamentals might even be better learned without having to deal with wind and mirage. Certain data like velocity isn’t even measured past about 5 yards unless you’ve already plunked down the the money for a radar unit. Again worrying about bout some of that can get in the way of building a solid foundation.

Something else about shooting short is that if it’s not on at 25 yards, it’s not going to fix itself and become a one hole group at 300 yards.

Couple of things that might help

What kind of chronograph?
The optical types can be misleading if the groups are large. They read travel time between two sensors in milliseconds, bullets taking the same path is critical. Might not be as bad as the numbers show.

Old ammo just does not shoot the same as fresh. Stuff that has been stored for 15 years should not be expected to be as precise and can also show up in the ES/SD numbers.

Don’t zero your scope perfectly. You need the same point of aim for each shot. If you shoot out your point of aim, it’s tougher to keep a small group.

Might try a smaller target, plenty of 10 meter air rifle targets out there, might help your focus.

Your 1 MOA dot is probably working against you at 25 yards, the hash marks are probably a lot more refined, use them. That will also move your point of impact off your point of aim, if you don’t move your zero.

Look forward to the next range report.

 

[Timmis2]

I will say that the AR15 in 223 has been one of my most frustrating precision shooting experiences, in terms of group size and velocities. Best just to have fun with that gun in that caliber ... 3 gun and A zone torso hits at distance.

I don't plan to invest a lot of time with it. I have new bolt-actions to shoot and would like to reload for. I have optics on them that are ideal for pursuing accuracy and precision, although reloading 556 appeals to me if I can come close in accuracy to my bolt guns. Most of my 556 bullet stockpile will go towards a Ruger Gun site Scout rifle. Thanks for the input!

 

[Timmis2]

@Timmis2 good for you for getting out and shooting after all this time. Not sure this applies to you but, millions bought firearms at that time and still haven’t learned to use them. It’s never too late.

With good help, you can learn almost everything you need to learn in 25-50 yards. Basic fundamentals might even be better learned without having to deal with wind and mirage. Certain data like velocity isn’t even measured past about 5 yards unless you’ve already plunked down the the money for a radar unit. Again worrying about bout some of that can get in the way of building a solid foundation.

Something else about shooting short is that if it’s not on at 25 yards, it’s not going to fix itself and become a one hole group at 300 yards.

Couple of things that might help

What kind of chronograph?
The optical types can be misleading if the groups are large. They read travel time between two sensors in milliseconds, bullets taking the same path is critical. Might not be as bad as the numbers show.

Old ammo just does not shoot the same as fresh. Stuff that has been stored for 15 years should not be expected to be as precise and can also show up in the ES/SD numbers.

Don’t zero your scope perfectly. You need the same point of aim for each shot. If you shoot out your point of aim, it’s tougher to keep a small group.

Might try a smaller target, plenty of 10 meter air rifle targets out there, might help your focus.

Your 1 MOA dot is probably working against you at 25 yards, the hash marks are probably a lot more refined, use them. That will also move your point of impact off your point of aim, if you don’t move your zero.

Look forward to the next range report.

I have an Athlon Rangecraft. I think it picked up a few shots from the people in the pistol bays next to me. There was one MV reading that said 4000fps. I'm collecting MV's to use with a ballistic calculator to be able to do things like zero for maximum point blank range at a shorter range than the zero and dialing turrets intelligently with targets that have 1 inch squares and circle lines.

I only zero'd once with one of 12 ammos used in the test for groups vs bullseyes. I agree a 1 MOA red dot reticle is not ideal for precision. It covers up the target significantly which is more of a problem at longer ranges.

I hope to run the same test with my AR from the rifle bench bay on a slower day. Most of the ammo used though I only have a box of 20, and I want to run the same test with a mini-14 and RUger Gunsite Scout (both 556). I have 15 bullets left for most of the ammo I tested. That will allow me to test the AR again from a bench, and the mini and scout rifle. I'm sure a bench will be steadier than a tripod. It was really cold in the range and i was trying not to shiver. I should have dressed more warmly

Thanks for the tips

 

[jelenko]

As others have said, congrats on a productive first day!

I've worked with an AR 'spacegun' for 18 years and have a lot of rounds through it.
Shooting an AR off the bench for accuracy is tough. Big issue is the way the buttstock comes to a point where it sits on a rear bag - it can easily cause the rifle to recoil differently shot to shot.
I worked with one of the Led Sleds - getting it to recoil consistently was problematic.
I haven't tried these, but Caldwell makes front and rear bags for AR 15's - they look like they might work well.

My understanding is a Stag is capable of 1 1/2 to 2 MOA accuracy good factory ammo. I would think you could get that to ~ 1 MOA to 1 1/2 MOA with tuned handloads.
I've seen 1 to 1 1/2 MOA groups from others with the Frontier 68 and 75 grain ammo in a well put together AR15 with a match grade barrel with
If you're looking for accuracy, stay away from ball/FMJ ammo.

PS. I'm not using the Caldwell bags because, with the custom buttstock I'm using, I'm able to use a bag friendly piece of equipment.

 

[Timmis2]

As others have said, congrats on a productive first day!

I've worked with an AR 'spacegun' for 18 years and have a lot of rounds through it.
Shooting an AR off the bench for accuracy is tough. Big issue is the way the buttstock comes to a point where it sits on a rear bag - it can easily cause the rifle to recoil differently shot to shot.
I worked with one of the Led Sleds - getting it to recoil consistently was problematic.
I haven't tried these, but Caldwell makes front and rear bags for AR 15's - they look like they might work well.

My understanding is a Stag is capable of 1 1/2 to 2 MOA accuracy good factory ammo. I would think you could get that to ~ 1 MOA to 1 1/2 MOA with tuned handloads.
I've seen 1 to 1 1/2 MOA groups from others with the Frontier 68 and 75 grain ammo in a well put together AR15 with a match grade barrel with
If you're looking for accuracy, stay away from ball/FMJ ammo.

PS. I'm not using the Caldwell bags because, with the custom buttstock I'm using, I'm able to use a bag friendly piece of equipment.

my lead sled conflicts with an AR's mag well when using the optional weight bag. I can forego the weight bag and use the sled unweighted (which is pretty much like most lead sleds anyway. I also have front and rear bags but not the Caldwell AR version which I see now has potential.

From what you and others said, I did get a few shots around 1 MOA with questionable ammo and a stock AR from a tripod. If I can learn from that and attempt to repeat it with some improvements, I think there is potential. Part of the data collection was to extrapolate potential handload angles. I may try to mimic a factory load with a handload by copying it's COAL (I recorded the COAL for each ammo type), grain weight, and work up to the velocity that shot well. It probably won't shoot the same but it seems like an intelligent approach. It's anyone's guess what powder these loads used. I noticed the Frontier loads had a distinct smell over the others...sulphur I think. The Frontiers were new ammo. The 68gr 556 HPBTM was no surprise to me as one of the better groups. I have heard others recommend it for AR's over the other Frontier varieties. The 223 PMC shined too though, however it was my last string, the barrel had over a total of 100 rounds in it total if that break-in helps, and I might have tried a little harder and applied what I learned better from the previous strings...breathing, relaxing, and applying pressure mindfully to the tripod and rifle.

 

[CF Junkie]

Great to see you are considering ways to improve and get experience. That is the first step to improvement.

IMO, a lead sled might seem like a good idea right now, but since you can't get behind the rifle on a lead sled in the way you will eventually want to shoot it to achieve real accuracy, it is more of a hinderance and a builder of bad habits than something that you can use to make improvements.

ARs have a lot of stuff moving internally that tend to make them less accurate than bolt actions, but you can still learn a lot about improving your set up and gaining consistency that will make you a much better shooter. It takes time behind the trigger and your ability to gather information about what works for you.
Unfortunately, I don't think there are many short cuts.

I would suggest you seek out some shooters who you think have figured it out and watch, ask and learn.
Most of us have had to go through that process to finally figure out how to consistently shoot under 1/2 MOA, and some of us may eventually make it to 1/4 MOA if we were particularly attentive.

Don't get discouraged if it takes a bit of time. If you are particularly self-observant, it moves along quicker, but some of us take longer to build that skill than others. Unfortunately, I don't think there are many short cuts. Just watch out that you don't get too confident along the way. That's when I usually throw the next shot and mess up my groups.

 

[charlie b]

There is some good factory ammo out there. I think you found one of the Frontier versions. When shooting to determine your rifle's capability I'd just stick with those. The rest, at least to me, are fodder for the plinking range and won't tell you much about your capability or your gun's.

Dry fire practice can be very helpful at your stage. Find a tutorial on fundamentals and start practicing without ammo. Concentrate on your setup. I have to admit I never liked the lead sleds. I just never found them helpful at all. I learned on a 22LR and that experience was very helpful when I picked up my first M-14 in the service. Some of the good air rifles these days also make excellent trainers. If you are restricted in winter months to indoor ranges, either one of those might be of interest You can also find a .22LR upper for an AR but I don't know if any are accurate enough for real training.

You mention bolt guns. If one is a .223 or other lighter recoiling cartridge then start out with it. Wait until you have a grasp of the basics and some idea of how well you are doing before picking up the AR again.

If you can, visit a range with like minded shooters. Most will be happy to answer questions or help.