Bear Protection

[BigDMT]

When in bear country, going with a buddy or two is a very good idea.

Most all hikers in Glacier National Park of Montana carry bear spray when hiking because you cannot have a gun in the park, but it never fails that every year you hear about tourist hikers getting killed (and sometimes even eaten) by grizzly bears. That's no exaggeration either, it's every year!

You also hear about archery hunters getting charged and attacked by grizzlies, but it's rare to hear that one of a hunter getting killed because most all of archery hunters carry side arms.

The statistics in Montana speak for themselves. There is no comparison between the mortality rate of hikers with spray getting attacked vs. Hunters with firearms getting attacked. The list of hikers getting killed without a firearm is about all the list consists of. And that's a fact jack

So only carry spray in bear country if you want to, but its only a matter of time before the good lord calls your number a little earlier than you expected.

 

[markr]

I don't think that I'll ever be able to get back to Grizzly territory before I'm gone......but if I were wandering Grizzly territory and be hunting anything else than Grizzlys.......I would at the very least be carrying a sidearm that I am confidant would terminate a Grizzly immediately, should I be able to do my part.....notwithstading that Good bear spray may be there as well.

 

[Old Navy]

I watch the show "Alaska State Troopers" on the National Geographic channel. Anytime those guys are around bears they are carrying pump guns with slugs. Later! Frank

 

[TC260]

The statistics in Montana speak for themselves. There is no comparison between the mortality rate of hikers with spray getting attacked vs. Hunters with firearms getting attacked. The list of hikers getting killed without a firearm is about all the list consists of. And that's a fact jack

That's kind of a "freakonomics" statistic. It may have some correlation to guns or it may be completely unrelated. Hikers and tourists want to get close to bears to feed them, take pictures, and are generally clueless about their surroundings and the dangers of wild animals. Hunters are more conscious of their environment, aren't interested in getting close to dangerous animals, inhabit different areas (remote areas as opposed to parks like Yellowstone ), etc.

To make a reasoned judgement between the two, statistics that are more closely related to the issues at hand would be better to work with. Something like, of those who were attacked, were people more likely to survive with one tactic vs the other. Where/how are attacks happening and that sort of thing.

 

[BigDMT]

My brother guides hunters in the Bob Marshal Wilderness area of Montana. He has been guiding for close to 30 years. During that time he has seen a few injury's related to the horses and mules he uses as part of the business of guiding. He came out of the hills last season with cracked ribs after being thrown from his horse.

He used to carry a Marlin Model 95 45/70 to finish game shot by his hunters. It had a western appeal and would be good medicine against a grizzly. As time and experience went on, he changed his mind and started carrying a Remington 870 12 gauge loaded with buckshot. His belief is that if a grizzly attacked him or his hunters, it would be so furious and fast that he would only have one or two shots at a very fast moving target. Hence the 12 gauge. If you can get a blast in the face of a charging grizzly, hopefully it will be enough to turn it around or kill it outright.

LE Hanson

Yeah that's one thing I mentioned earlier too. My in-laws from my sister's marriage are from Alaska and they told me that the shotgun is a more preferred weapon for bear defense amongst guides in Alaska as well.

Kinda surprised me that a shotgun was preferred at first because of penetration issues. But now when I think about it, it really makes sense.

Like I also said before in an earlier post, a 12 gauge shotgun saved the life of my very good friend in the North Fork area in Montana. Near the Tuchuck campground on Trail Creek road to be exact.

Dropped the sow grizzly dead in her tracks with one shot as she was charging. And get this, he only had 7 1/2 bird shot in it because he was hunting grouse! The one shot was all he was able to get off since it happened so fast and so where he killed her was as fast as he could get on her and pull the trigger. She laid there dying only 7 feet from where he was standing. The close proximity of her when he fired still had the 7 1/2 bird shot in a very tight pattern so when it hit her in the head, she was done for. Had it all not happened so fast and she had been 10 to 15 yards when he fired, he may not be living today. Now that's lucky

But nonetheless, it was another save by a firearm in Montana. If he only had spray, he would be dead for sure. there's no way in hell he would have had time to deploy a can of bear spray and pray that it worked on an enraged sow protecting her cubs. Not much deters that type of attack except something that's gonna kill the bear.

 

[BigDMT]

The statistics in Montana speak for themselves. There is no comparison between the mortality rate of hikers with spray getting attacked vs. Hunters with firearms getting attacked. The list of hikers getting killed without a firearm is about all the list consists of. And that's a fact jack

That's kind of a "freakonomics" statistic. It may have some correlation to guns or it may be completely unrelated. Hikers and tourists want to get close to bears to feed them, take pictures, and are generally clueless about their surroundings and the dangers of wild animals. Hunters are more conscious of their environment, aren't interested in getting close to dangerous animals, inhabit different areas (remote areas as opposed to parks like Yellowstone ), etc.

To make a reasoned judgement between the two, statistics that are more closely related to the issues at hand would be better to work with. Something like, of those who were attacked, were people more likely to survive with one tactic vs the other. Where/how are attacks happening and that sort of thing.

Almost every instance of any attack in Montana is where a hiker or hunter "surprised" a bear while walking in the woods. Huckleberry pickers waking up sleeping bears in the brush, Hikers walking on steep hillside trails and coming around a bend face to face with a grizzly using the same trail, unknowingly getting too close to an unseen cub in the brush up ahead, etc... The example about the cub is almost always certain death for hikers in the park.

I can't even remember the last time I heard of an attack instigated by trying to get too close or trying to feed bears....The attacks are so common here in the summer and fall, everyone knows the danger of grizzly bears very well

 

[pmarauder]

I Believe you can now legally carry a handgun in Glacier national park now. I think the law was passed last year some time.

Here is why bear spray is useless here in Montana once it starts getting colder. I was on a pack in day hunt last fall back in the flathead range (East hungry horse). We set out from the truck at about 5:00 am while it was pissing down rain and snow. I normally carry my Glock 20 w/ stout 200 gr loads. Since bow season was done with, I figured to save weight, I would just bring bear spray on my hip since my rifle was in my gunslinger ll scabbard. Not even a mile into the hike, the alder brush about 20 feet away erupts with commotion and the all to familiar sound of popping teeth and woofs. by the time I spun my headlamp towards the brush and reached for my bear spray, I could just barely make out the image. I could see the outline turn and smash through the brush and exit the small creek on the down side of us. Now I had mid weight gloves on, and couldn't even attempt to remove the velcro strap, let alone the safety cap on top of the bear spray.
Has any one of you who promote the use of bear spray tried to get it out of the belt holster and unsnap the safety cap with gloves on??
Its not going to happen.
I went home after the hunt and put on my Blackhawk holster with the glock 20. With the same gloves on, I can get that gun out and have my finger on the trigger in under a second.
I will never take bear spray into the woods again.

 

[Glenn Powell]

Frank, when the troopers are dealing with a bear, it is a problem bear, usually showing aggression when they get the call.
We all hear about the poor unfortunate hikers getting mauled, and the hunter killing the blood crazed bear. But answer me this, how many bears pressed the attack after being sprayed with bear spray?

 

[BigDMT]

I Believe you can now legally carry a handgun in Glacier national park now. I think the law was passed last year some time.

Yeah they've been trying to do that for years and years now. I hope it did finally get through. That change will save a lot of people's lives.

I grew up my entire life in the flathead valley and refused to hike in Glacier park because I couldn't carry a gun. There's a lot of good fishing in that park, if I can carry a gun now, I just might have to give it a try

 

[BigDMT]

Frank, when the troopers are dealing with a bear, it is a problem bear, usually showing aggression when they get the call.
We all hear about the poor unfortunate hikers getting mauled, and the hunter killing the blood crazed bear. But answer me this, how many bears pressed the attack after being sprayed with bear spray?

Will you just stop giving bad advice??? I was trying to be nice and reason with you using mature debate to make you see the error of your ways, but it's not working. Your advice is WRONG and obviously comes from inexperience. Your suggestions for only carrying bear spray will end up getting people killed. YOURSELF INCLUDED! Please STOP!!!

Your short term of residence in Alaska has you thinking you know everything about bear encounters. You do not sir. You will soon find out that you were wrong all along when your time comes from a sow protecting cubs and all you have is spray.

 

[pmarauder]

But answer me this, how many bears pressed the attack after being sprayed with bear spray?

I also believe last year while i was bowhunting....I report came in of a guy getting killed by a black bear after he emptied his entire can of bear spray on the bear. Google it.

That is one example. Bear spray doesn't work in alot of cases. Some times it does..... I will roll the dice and take my chances with my 10 auto.

 

[pmarauder]

Ok, so I was slightly wrong..... it only mauled him real good......

But here is your example Glen

http://missoulian.com/news/local/wildlife-agents-kill-black-bear-after-attack-on-camper-in/article_750aa8e8-feb7-11e1-89f8-001a4bcf887a.html

 

[Glenn Powell]

Thanks for that, that is the first one I have heard of. Please read the first post, where I was talking about a fella with little to no firearm experience. What is he supposed to do? Pack his pistol griped shotgun which he admits to being afraid of and get himself and his wife and kids hurt? I really do not care if you feel it is bad advice, but I feel with his situation, and those who are not familiar with firearms bear spray is far better. And yea, I will continue to carry it, I have deployed the stuff on actual bears and have seen the results. Opinions are like a$$ holes, everyone has one, and they usually stink. Weather you agree or not, that is my opinion. I am sorry you took this so personal, I apologize.

 

[BigDMT]

Thanks for that, that is the first one I have heard of. Please read the first post, where I was talking about a fella with little to no firearm experience. What is he supposed to do? Pack his pistol griped shotgun which he admits to being afraid of and get himself and his wife and kids hurt? I really do not care if you feel it is bad advice, but I feel with his situation, and those who are not familiar with firearms bear spray is far better. And yea, I will continue to carry it, I have deployed the stuff on actual bears and have seen the results. Opinions are like a$$ holes, everyone has one, and they usually stink. Weather you agree or not, that is my opinion. I am sorry you took this so personal, I apologize.

No need to apologize to me, my safety won't be compromised by your advice because I know better.

You want to know the best advice to give a person like that fella at your workplace? Tell him to "stay the hell out of the woods until he knows how to effectively utilize a firearm and knows how to identify bear sign and properly avoid confrontation with bears lest he gets himself and his family member seriously injured or killed" Or you'll probably be reading a very small article about him in the paper one day and that will be the last of it.

That fella has no business being in the wild. Afraid of a pistol gripped shotgun? Sounds like he needs to put his big boy pants on if he wants to play with the bears I take it he is some sort of city slicker eh?

 

[Glenn Powell]

From California :He watched his father in law shoot a slug out of it and it split his hand wide open, would scare me too! My uncle has one of those 454 freedom arms, I shot it exactly 4 time and will never, never touch it again. Telling a guy to stay on the concrete around here is near impossible, so many trails and fishing holes to find, and don't get be started on prospecting. As soon as it starts to warm up and the range clears up yes, if he wants I will take him to the range to shoot my S&W629 stoked with 300g Cast Performance. He is also looking into buying a rifle, stainless Howa 30/06, about all he can afford right now, and I feel its a good one. The odds are he will be hunting with me, and I pack a 358 Norma with ether 225 TSX or 250 partitions.

 

[Bodei]

The best advice is to get yourself a double-barrel shotgun, go out on your balcony and fire two rounds off into the air...

 

[BigDMT]

From California :He watched his father in law shoot a slug out of it and it split his hand wide open, would scare me too! My uncle has one of those 454 freedom arms, I shot it exactly 4 time and will never, never touch it again. Telling a guy to stay on the concrete around here is near impossible, so many trails and fishing holes to find, and don't get be started on prospecting. As soon as it starts to warm up and the range clears up yes, if he wants I will take him to the range to shoot my S&W629 stoked with 300g Cast Performance. He is also looking into buying a rifle, stainless Howa 30/06, about all he can afford right now, and I feel its a good one. The odds are he will be hunting with me, and I pack a 358 Norma with ether 225 TSX or 250 partitions.

Ahhhh yes... Californians are the preferred entre of bears in Montana lol.

I have a 358. Norma Mag as well. Really like that round. I shoot the 225gr partitions. Nuf punch for anything in North America. Still don't know why that cartridge is nearly obsolete? It's such a great round. Of course the 35s have never been popular in the states I suppose.

Anyhow, at least that greenhorn has somebody willing to teach him a thing or two. Take care.

 

[Glenn Powell]

http://www.centerforwildlifeinformation.org/BeBearAware/BearSpray/bearspray.html

Good read, and lots of good info regardless of position, for or against the use of bear spray. Yea, its government run, but the US Forest Service has a pretty good standing, up here, sometimes.

I read an article they did, I believe back in the 70's, about bullet penetration. There conclusion was 375H&H was the firearm of choice. They tested lots of different calibers and bullets from7mm to 458, in newspaper. The 375 had the best performance, with manageable recoil. The 358 Norma did not fair well, lack of factory ammo and poor performance of the bullets available gave it poor results. They did like the round and rifle and it was the only one they said with better bullets and ammo it would have scored much higher.

 

[Lazydays]

Gary, that is extreamly smart to fish with a buddy, don't forget the spray Won't be long now and the hatch will be kicking in ;D The lakes behind my house will be thawing out here pretty soon, and the cutthroat will be HUNGRY! All this talk of bears made me hungry, just got finished cooking up a big batch of Growling Chilli, 8)

till I got this stupid leg infection, I fished ten months a year, and in some cases twelve months a year. But got bit by a bunch of black flies last June, and one of the bites was deep enough to get into my blood stream. Legs swool up to over two inches bigger than the norm and were on fire. Went thru several stints of steroids (avoid Predezone!!!), and still use a topical one daily. Doc gave me the OK to get back to my passion again last January. Didn't get to go deer hunting this year as I couldn't walk half a city block! But now I ready to go turkey hunting!! Then onto my conquest of zapping half the coyotes in the county. Will be using lots of bug spray and wearing pants this year!! Besides I got another new three weight rod to try out.
gary

 

[Lazydays]

When in bear country, going with a buddy or two is a very good idea.

Most all hikers in Glacier National Park of Montana carry bear spray when hiking because you cannot have a gun in the park, but it never fails that every year you hear about tourist hikers getting killed (and sometimes even eaten) by grizzly bears. That's no exaggeration either, it's every year!

You also hear about archery hunters getting charged and attacked by grizzlies, but it's rare to hear that one of a hunter getting killed because most all of archery hunters carry side arms.

The statistics in Montana speak for themselves. There is no comparison between the mortality rate of hikers with spray getting attacked vs. Hunters with firearms getting attacked. The list of hikers getting killed without a firearm is about all the list consists of. And that's a fact jack

So only carry spray in bear country if you want to, but its only a matter of time before the good lord calls your number a little earlier than you expected.

I knew a guy that was a DNR guy in Alaska, and he often came down to the lower 48 on vacations. He told me that the bears up on the Beartooth were the worst he'd ever ran into. I kinda laughed about it as I already knew that! Why in all the world any fool would want to hike thru there still amazes me.
gary