*-* BE PREPARED *-*

[TheBlueEyedBear]

__THE NEWBIE and dreams of shooting in the near future__

First, I will place the BOTTOM LINE here: THERE ARE LIARS OUT THERE!! Oh, really? Some people, and by no means not all, but some must think it is the manly thing to do. I don’t understand it?! Are they lying just to get your business, because surely they know that if you lie to people, you’re NOT going to have repeat business. I don’t care how good the product. And, if you can’t trust someone’s word, wouldn’t that put a tremendous amount of doubt on their product. I know the machines do the work, but who is programming the machines, oiling whatever needs to be oiled, or whatever?? Yep, the same guy that lies time and time again! “Yes sir, that action will probably be there by the end of March,ordered mid January). Being a ‘rookie’ at this sport I thought that really wasn’t too bad. Well, the end of March came and went! I emailed the ‘custom builder’ of my action to inquire as to the status of my so eagerly awaited ‘piece’. His response; “We are still working the bolts. It is still gonna be a little while. They need to go to heat treat and coating. Maybe 6 weeks.” JUST FREEK’N TERRIFIC! So I make my entry in my calendar for another 6 weeks. May 15th, my alarm goes off in OUTLOOK and my little pop-up says “your ‘custom action’ is due to arrive today”. But guess what? No action. Before I send another e-mail I decided to call my gunsmith to see if maybe he received it but forgot to notify me. NOPE, no such luck. Off goes the e-mail again: What is the status of my action now? His response, “bolts are heat treated. need to be cleaned up and coated then will be done. should be in June for sure.” OH BOY!! I’m feeling a real rush now! Actually, I think that was my cheeks puckering. Let’s face it, that was 3 weeks ago! What kind of CLEAN UP are they getting?? Anyway, that was the final straw. I basically told him that I don’t care if that action PUKES SILVER BULLETS out of the bottom of it, I don’t want it! Please refund my deposit!!! Now we will see how long it takes for the deposit to be refunded. [Since starting this rant a couple of days ago, I have received my full deposit.]

I don’t mean to bore you, but, this crap is ridiculous. Also back in that mid January time frame I ordered my ‘custom stock’ by that so called custom stock maker up north of the border in Canada. When I ordered the stock and inquired as to the ETA, I was told: ” Hi Barry, I think we are running around eight weeks right now. Ian”. “No problem’, I said. I have to wait that long for my action too. Well, you know where we’re headed, don’t ya! Yep, my little pop-up jumps up around the end of March saying, “your stock is ready, your stock is ready”. But I thought to myself, “Not so fast, dumb ass.” We’ve been down this road before! So, this time I thought I would make a phone call. I don’t have the phone records in front of me but I know it was around the end of March. His response, “We’re running around 6 to 8 weeks”. Yep, just like a broken record. To make a long story short, I called several more times and got the same run-around. So on June second, before going out to celebrate our 40th wedding anniversary I sent this e-mail:

Please CANCEL my order!!!
I am sick and tired of being lied to!! I realize it will probably take longer to order from someplace else, but I am fed-up!! If I would have run my business like this I would have been retired many years ago; but, with no money to live on. This is ridiculous and a poor excuse for running a business.
AGAIN,,, CANCEL MY ORDER!!

His response: Canceled and your card info has been shredded.
WOW, if only getting a stock would be that simple!

My point is, for all the other NEW-COMERS to this sport BE PREPARED. And believe me, there are some truly nice people out there,especially on this site) to deal with. I’ve been buying supplies lately from BRUNO’s. WOW, what a GREAT place to do business. Good prices with fast delivery. If the item is not in stock or a question should arise regarding your order, you WILL receive an e-mail, FAST. Need a front rest,,, BOB PASTOR ‘Mr. Blueberry’! Great guy, AND builds an awesome front rest. GUNSMITH’s; John King here in Kila Montana. I wish everybody could meet this man!! I could go on and on, and I will; Tim North,great barrels and,,, ON-TIME delivery), Joel Russo,my new stock maker), Barney Lawton,LAWTON MACHINE LLC., my new action maker), Dave Kiff,‘The Reamer’ man), Bruce Thom,BAT - my next action – on order), and, did I mention Amy BRUNO? If you really need it, I’ll bet Amy will help you get it. I also want to thank Leo Anderson; Donovan Moran, and other site members who have responded openly to my questions regarding, what had to be in their minds, trivial little items. For a NEWBIE there are a lot of those. And, I’m sure, many more to come. But fortunately, at 6mmBR there is a wealth of knowledge at a click of a button.

Thanks for listening to my rant. Please BE PREPARED!

__________________

 

[Cochran]

Almost all high end shooting vendors are small mom and pop operations. They are generally excellent craftsmen but sometimes not the best businessmen. All in all, its better this way because its the only way we can get super high quality components at a reasonable cost. For a high production facility to provide the same quality they would have to charge a fortune to cover the overhead. You can always buy off the shelf components with no wait time.
Another thing to remember is that they deal with alot of people and the majority are satisfied otherwise they wouldn't have the reputations they do. Sometimes stuff happens. For example, I've had nothing but good results dealing with one of the vendors you distain. On the other hand I've recieved crap service from at least one of the vendors you hail as great. Your mileage may very.
Since you dont mind name dropping, whats yours ?

Jeff Cochran

 

[ArtinNC]

lynn,
I wondered what happened to you. I agree with you about BRC. And tim north is the best on his ON-TIME DELIVERY, he will ship on or before his ship date. But a Bill Shehane,and this is the first time that I have ever said this)I WILL NOT use a Bill Shehane stock if he was the only stock maked in the world. I paid $300 for a stock that was so far out of true that I took it to Hyatt Gun Shop in Charlotte,NC 3 years ago and give it to them FREE, hope someone was able to use it. Art
PS: but every one seems to like Shehane Stocks,but NOT me )

 

[ArtinNC]

I agree with you.

 

[jb1000br]

Guys:

No problem "Telling it like it is" but PLEASE let's not let this thread degrade, K?

Thanks,
JB

 

[JER]

Almost all high end shooting vendors are small mom and pop operations. They are generally excellent craftsmen but sometimes not the best businessmen. All in all, its better this way because its the only way we can get super high quality components at a reasonable cost. For a high production facility to provide the same quality they would have to charge a fortune to cover the overhead.

It doesn't cost "a fortune to cover the overhead" to have a simple, yet well organized production scheduling system,it can even be a cheap notebook!) to tell customers when they should expect their goods +/- a week or two.

Nobody is asking for faster delivery times. People are asking for REASONABLY ACCURATE delivery times. If it's a year, say so.

 

[TheBlueEyedBear]

Thanks guys! I appreciate your comments. If it were my site to run It would PIN this post or similar POST and let new Fo-Pas be added during the course of time. I would be amazing to see the new hard working 'startups' get a crack at the shooting public. Yes, the true mom-and-pop shops are out there and hopefully they will get in the lime-light.

As far as Tim North, you hit it on the head. I just recently received two new barrels in the very recent past. One even went out of house for fluting. But Amazingly that sweet lady in the office called at exactly when I was told the barrel would ship, and gave me the shipping info. THAT my friends is the way it should work.

I had another incident where I had a VIPER,imagine that) front rest built by Bob Pastor,I love that rest). He not only kept me posted along the way, he sent photos of production progress. I realize most shops can't do that, but to care about your work sure says a lot to me. Thanks to Bob and Tim and the other good folks out there who do run their businesses honestly and ethically.

 

[ArtinNC]

lynn
Sent you a Shooters Forun E-Mail.
Art

 

[stiller]

All I can say about this thread is that not all the people that are in this sport are liars. Most of us try our damndest to do what we say and what the customer wants, most of the time we just way overestimate our abilities. I guarantee that we always have the best intentions, probably arent the best in production control and almost always come up short in expectations for deliveries. For the last 2 years I quit giving a ship date. I will tell the customer that my best GUESS is a date, but dont be surprised if it is 6 months later. I know that doesnt help matters much, but most of the BR suppliers are in business because they like it and most damn sure arent getting rich doing it. Almost every day I begin to ask myself why do I work the 60 to 80 hour weeks and loose sleep over whether I did what I was supposed to or did I forget something I promised. I guess the flip side is the 6 figure+ job I gave up this for just didnt have the satisfaction either. Maybe we should start playing the lottery more. Its all a crap shoot in the end.

I guess my best advice to anyone wanting something now, is to buy from a dealer/mfr that has the item in stock or a long track record of meeting dates that are acceptable. Guys like Bruno, Sinclair etc have put out lots of money for inventory to have stuff for guys that cant wait. Use and support them. I will like to collectively apologive for all of us late to deliver benchrest companys. I am truly sorry.. Hopefully that helps, but I doubt it.

PS. I have a stock myself on order since last November, due in February. 2 weeks away in March. Now they wont even answer the phone. Am I surprised, probably not as I dealt with the guy before. I am sure one day it will show up in the mail and it will be a good day. Until then I will just shoot the same old gun I always do and look forward to Xmas whatever month it will happen to be. Its now midnight and I have run the last part for the day. Off to bed.

 

[StephenPerry]

Expectations
I side with Jerry on this one. What's a manufacturer to do if he services the whole country but can only produce so many widgets a month. Customers are strange. They call 10 times while the manufacturers is trying to produce just for information and pricing then go to the next guy.
Finally they place an order with a check or card that they know they can stop payment any time and keep shopping. If they find they can save $10 they stop the payment wheels on their first order.
Or the customer puts condition on the manufacturer/retailer that either deliver by so and so date or the deals off. The manufacturer does his best and delivers on time. But during this waiting time the customer has read that another product he likes is on the market, upon receiving delivery the screwed up customer sells his widget for an 'as new' price and the cycle starts all over again. Scary thing is I know shooters like this. Keep the faith Jerry see you in Raton.
Stephen Perry

 

[rstreich]

You know, I'd normally stay out of a thread like this, but I feel like a contrary opinion is called for here. I understand the frustration of not getting something on time or when it was promised, but you really only have two choices IMO: either get over it or buy off the shelf.

I haven't been doing this very long but I already have the action that's been on order for about a year now that seems to perpetually be only a month or two away, the stock that never quite gets done in time for a trip, and the order that was misplaced, costing me a yet-to-be-determined amount of time when I missed out on a run. The one thing that I'm pleased about with these experiences is that my response, so far, has been: Oh well. You see, normally I'm anything but patient and have often been referred to as the "customer from hell." So, I'm pleased that I've never demonstrated that behavior with any of these vendors.

I'll wait patiently for my action, checking on it periodically 'cause I know that when it's finally completed, it'll be a great product at a fair price. When my stock doesn't show up on time, I'll just take a different rifle, or even buy a good used rifle to take its place if need be, then sell it when the stock finally arrives,'cause I know that the stock will be beautifully finished and well bedded at a bargain price. And I'll also wait patiently for the next run of a product for my order to be included 'cause, well, life's too full of more important things to bitch about. I want what I want and if I have to wait for what I want, so be it. It's better than getting what I didn't want immediately. Been there, done that.

You should pay close attention to Jerry's post. I think it typifies all of the vendors that I've had the good fortune to deal with. None of them are getting rich--they're doing it 'cause they enjoy it and there's the satisfaction of contributing to something they love. Sometimes they wind up putting in some extraordinary effort to keep the machinery going or just to get it started. All of them have been a pleasure to do business with. I'd really hate to be the one that pushed one of them over that fine line that separates working hard for something you enjoy and giving it up because it's just too much effort.

I truly understand griping about someone not delivering something when they promised it, I just don't sympathize with it. Personally, I don't select vendors for their scheduling abilities as I'm more interested in the quality of their product.

I also strongly disagree that even a simple notebook can solve scheduling problems. When you have a small shop, it doesn't matter if you have the greatest scheduling software in the world, sh^t happens. Very expensive machines can break down,and not even big vendors are going to have a "hot spare" for one of those), upstream suppliers fail to deliver, outsource specialty houses take longer than promised, etc., etc.

If someone who was about to have their first custom gun built asked me for advice, the first thing I would tell them is to not make any plans for that gun until the final product was in their hands. So, to close this rather longish post, either get over it or buy something off the shelf. I don't mean for it to sound harsh, but those are the only two options you have that aren't going to lead to heartburn,although the latter choice frequently does lead to heartburn).

And, Jerry, although I don't yet own any of your products, I really appreciate the time that you put in, not just in the shop, but the extra time that you invest sharing your knowledge on boards like this one.

robert

 

[JER]

I also strongly disagree that even a simple notebook can solve scheduling problems. When you have a small shop, it doesn't matter if you have the greatest scheduling software in the world, sh^t happens. Very expensive machines can break down,and not even big vendors are going to have a "hot spare" for one of those), upstream suppliers fail to deliver, outsource specialty houses take longer than promised, etc., etc.

Maybe you can guess that I don't buy the song and dance that it is OK to ignore commitments "just because" A, B, or C happened.

If something is truly beyond the shop's control, honest communication goes a LONG WAY to maintaining good customer relations.

I've been running production and production engineering for far too long to believe what you said.

 

[steveyrock]

I had a pleasant surprise in the mail yesterday from Broughton barrels telling me they shipped my 8 TWIST 5C barrel after only waiting 4 weeks.I was told the are running 8 to 10 weeks behind when I ordered it.

I ordered a Shehane ST-1000 stock from D&b Supply and took two weeks and I finished it and is ready to go.
Remington 700 action took 4 days to arrive to my FFL dealer.
Scope from Bruno's --- 10 days.
Davidson base and loading ramp, 4 days from Sinclair.
I am expecting my Jewell trigger any day along with my Kelby rings,recoil lug and fireing pin and spring. This project is mostly off the shelf items that I knew could be had in a couple months.

I got all my components for this rifle in 4 weeks and it goes to the smith this weekend and should be done in several weeks.I feel very gratefull after reading others problems.

 

[SlowpokeRodriguez]

Ahhhhh---the pleasures of participating in BR! Over time one will realize that contrary to what we are used to in the modern market place does not apply to a sizable portion of equipment required in this sport on the upper end. Sure you can obtain equipment in some cases by calling a dozen or so suppliers and the manufacturers but not everyone has the patience or knowledge to do so when they are first starting out. I have barrels sitting in the safe and even a few stocks and actions that I am keeping for when I need them. Have others on order for example, as Jerry Stiller pointed out earlier he provides estimates and he supplies the bulk of my actions and is going to develop a new large repeating action that will handle the 338 Lapua. I know that he will have it developed and on the market when he can---while at his shop earlier this year picking up some actions we discussed the time frame and my expectations are that it will be late this year or early next year when the new big boy will be ready.

The key is to learn to manage your expectations and plan appropriately----the fact of the matter is that only one component can hold up the production of your rifle. Then you get into the Smith’s time---I have spent many hours at one of the better known Smiths and have seen first hand many of the tribulations encountered that contribute to extended quoted delivery times. Often I have heard customers change orders on in process rifles or component suppliers who deliver late or defective products. In a manufacturing process that is so critical to planning and a constant influx of everything from emergency repairs to equipment problems can wreak havoc on a small operations production.

 

[TheBlueEyedBear]

MANAGING EXPECTATIONS?? When I talk with someone about ordering equipment, send them some of my hard earned money for a deposit, and get an expected date of delivery from that person, I sure as hell shouldn't have to MANAGE MY EXPECTATIONS! The MANAGING part should come from the person making the commitment! And, it doesn't take much. As mentioned in a post earlier, COMMUNICATIONS! A simple e-mail stating the truth about what happened to your order and when you can really expect it; that would go a long way.

Also, other than being dissatisfied with my order and the way it was handled, I have nothing against Mr. Stiller!! When I talked with him during the order process he was great to chat with. Talking about the town in Montana that we both used to live in was a hoot. The info he provided in regards to me building my first bench gun was very helpful and much appreciated. But after running my own,very successful) business for several years, I have problems tolerating poor business practices. And, as mentioned previously, I will take my business elsewhere.

As far as the kiss-ass responses I have read,,, maybe one of you got the action I was supposed to get. Who know??

Another thing you might want to consider; other people's time is involved here. I had to, and expect everybody else probably has to get a spot in the gunsmiths project book. Yep, my 'smith' manages his time. And when my time comes present, should he just sit and wait for me to deliver my 'goodies'? I would think not. I have to be rescheduled. And that's only appropriate.

 

[Kav]

MANAGING EXPECTATIONS?? When I talk with someone about ordering equipment, send them some of my hard earned money for a deposit, and get an expected date of delivery from that person, I sure as hell shouldn't have to MANAGE MY EXPECTATIONS! The MANAGING part should come from the person making the commitment! And, it doesn't take much. As mentioned in a post earlier, COMMUNICATIONS! A simple e-mail stating the truth about what happened to your order and when you can really expect it; that would go a long way.

So, you decide to build a gun one month before shooting season and want it to you asap...reminds me of when I built custom cycles and come feb/march they'd want me to give birth to a bike in 30 days time in a shop run by my Father and myself.

Not sure what more you want... you talked with the action maker and they stated what they believed would be the delivery date, then you called and they said "maybe six weeks" maybe being the key word...remember they are waiting for someone to do the heat treating etc...so they'll get on it as soon as they arrive, or do you assume they have something personal against you and just won't finish yours? From your original post the action would have been ~2months late..not that big of a deal in my eyes as well as many involved in custom guns and you got communication...do you want them to set down and spend all day calling/emailing those in line for an action everytime to tell them they are two months, and now one day, behind on the action? You called and got a reply, better than many builders and nightmare stories I've heard. I am sure you have nothing personal against builder A, B, or C but your post is representative of why we are becoming a McDonalds society.. these are custom built actions and take time to build..if you want production and a definite date try Remington or Savage and have it trued up. Most action makers take ~6-9 months to deliver an action unless it's on the shelf ready to go..if it has been sold out and they are in production and don't wanna wait try one of the other brands...seems simple enough.

BTW you'd be really steamed at one stock builder I ordered a stock from...two years ago... But my life doesn't revolve around that gun/stock and it'll make it when it makes it or I will go a different route and sell it upon arrival.

 

[stiller]

Barry,

I dont blame you for being upset. I was wrong in my estimate on more then one occasion. I am just not very good at guessing my time. In that time also, we introduced a new action line that screwed up our whole production schedule. Without finishing the new line, we may have come close to going out of business by trying to build just benchrest actions. I am responsible for getting my partner, an employee and all of our vendors paid and that had to take priority. The only thing that bothers me, is that you seem to think I did this on purpose. I gave you my best guess everytime I was asked for one. You were good to deal with and I am truly sorry this happened. As for the deposits, I only asked for $100. Any extra you sent on your own free will even after I asked you not too. And when you finally got done waiting and wrote me the email calling me everything in the book and accusing me of drinking up your deposit, I sent all of it back that day. ,IF only I could still drink once in awhile :, )

One the other side, dont fool yourself at this point thinking that BAT may not have the same late issues, as they have in the past. Lawton is known in this industry for the same issues. I hope they get you what you want. The action you ordered will be done sometime soon. I put the parts back in the main batches after you cancelled so I didnt have to pay lot charges on coatings etc. I am sure you dont want it, but if you do, I will let you have it for $150 off to try and help you get over the grief. As soon as the rest of the order gets coated it will be done and ready,

 

[Jake]

I have personal experience in dealing with Jerry Stiller. I ordered a Diamondback right after the first run had been bought up, and was told it would probably be awhile. Jerry always gave an estimate and NOT an exact delivery date. Well the action was taker longer than I expected and it looked like I may miss out on the shooting season. So I contacted Jerry and asked about maybe changing my order to a Viper action he had on the shelf. The only problem was my stock was already inletted for the Diamondback. Jerry offered to inlet the stock free of charge for the Viper. I was able to build the rifle in time for the shooting season. That is great customer service. And the quality of everything was superb.

Jake Hayes

 

[Jake]

Oh and Jerry I believe I know which stock maker you are talking about. I have a LV stock on order from his and have deposited $200 to him. He does not answer my calls or e-mails either. I really do not like the way he does business. It is so bad that just yesterday I sent him a registered letter asking for my money back.

Jake Hayes

 

[StephenPerry]

Ungratefulness
This thread is getting nasty. I only know Jerry from his work. He is an engineer what the frick else would you want for a designer/manufacturer. Some of you guys couldn't rub 2 sticks together to make a fire. Give these BR manufacturers a break. Only on computer benchrest can a new guy rant and rave about his bad planning and push it on the maker.
When I started benchrest it took 2 years to get all the parts together. I didn't complain most of the money upfront was provided by the smith. Computer no names should not complain just learn. I find myself now with some no-name on by bullet Thread saying some of my bullets blew up. What a crock. My buddy Gene who shot a few of my bullets he said low 2 aggs and a BR student I gave what we made said he shot a 1 with them are the only 2 people besides myself that have ever shot my bullets.
What a bad way of saying my 3 hours writing my bullet Thread is flawed by a no name Rhino. Scourage me whatever goes on in computer benchrest. This makes 2 times.
Stephen Perry