BBL cleaning/Carbon question

[4xforfun]

I have read so much about carbon fouling and the dreaded "carbon ring" with the dashers. Does this problem exist with other calibers? The reason I ask is that the last three Krieger BBls I baught.....1 dasher and two 300 WSMs...have between 250 and 400 rounds though them and my cleaning regiments is 2 wt patches run through twice each followed by a little scrubbing with a nylon brush and patch dry.......clean as a whistle. I patch in a little sweats and the patches come out pure white...just a wasted step, in my opinion. Eventualy cleaning will get more involved, but for now it is bonehead simple. What I do not know about is the carbon.....I do not have a bore scope...I am not sure I could handle it, as anal as I am!!! Could I have a pending carbon problem, or am I ( again) being anal and a worry wort?

Tod

 

[Nodak7mm]

Hi Tod,

I shoot a fast 6.5 like Bob Pastor and he told me sometime ago that I needed to stay on top of the carbon ring by hitting it with iosso every 100-120 rounds. I verified growth of the carbon ring with a borescope and have pretty much been doing what Bob taught me since then.. A friend of mine from the Elk River club was 4 points ahead of the eventually MN State LR winner on day one, but then his barrel went wonky on day two. Cleaned for carbon and barrel returned to its normal tack driving self. That was on a 6.5x47L

No, I think carbon is there on all, maybe some more than most. But I am a believer in Bob's recommended cleaning regimen.

Rod

 

[fdshuster]

Tod: Carbon fouling is very real. I've watched it buildup with my Hawkeye borescope, and a patch coming out white is not an indication that there is no carbon in the bore.

It is almost like a hard, baked-on plating and many/most liquid solvents will not touch it.

I find it will form mostly beginning a few inches in front of the throat and continue for qbout 6" to 8", and from there to the muzzle, have never seen it.

The only way I've found to reliably remove it is with JB bore paste (IOSSO is also said to work very well), and a bronze brush. Usually about 10 strokes, chamber to muzzle, will rip it right out of the bore. I've done many before and after tests, checking with the borescope and am able to verify the results.

Some powders seem to cause more carbon than others, VihtaVouri being one of the cleanest, and ball powders like Win. 748, H380, H414, etc. being the dirtiest.

 

[4xforfun]

I figured that it would directly corralate with the powder being burnt. I am just cleaning up from last nights shooting....I posted after I cleaned the first 300 WSM. Just now cleaning the 300 wsm HG.....After I cleaned it I went after it with a tight patch and Iosso. Cleaned out the Iosso with wet patches followed by brushing with a bronze brush and lots of Butches. Now finishing with a soaking in sweats...just to see if there was any copper under whatever carbon I got out. Going to go after the first WSM after I finish the HG.

I was just hoping that after 5 years of cleaning BBLs obviously sent to me by the DEVIL HERSELF I was going to get a break with some tubes that I actually ENJOY cleaning!!!

Thanks,
Tod

 

[fdshuster]

Tod: Just to clarify: I don't worry about ever getting the barrel squeeky clean, completely free of copper or carbon. I just want to keep it under control.

I have seen how left unattended, it can raise pressure.

I learned the hard way when I let my cleaning routine fall behind on one rifle, and started blowing primers, with the same load that I have always been using trouble-free. The debris from the blown primers wiped out my Neil Jones tuned Rem. 700 trigger. That lesson cost me $70 + shipping.

 

[Win94ae]

I had a carbon ring in my 30-30 from not using a bronze bore brush with my Hoppes.

That is where it used to reside. I used to think my bore was "clean as a whistle" too.

I now use used Hoppes with a bronze brush, alcohol with a bronze brush, and oil with a bronze brush to combat carbon fouling... and it actually is "clean as a whistle" now!

 

[fdshuster]

Win94ae: Nice pics. Wish I could get them like that. Do have some special photo equipment?

 

[LRPV]

Fdshuster could you explain your process of using jb's with a brush? I've always used it on a patch with a jag. And when you say strokes, do you mean back and forth or just from breech to muzzle?
Jason

 

[fdshuster]

Jason: I use a formed patch around a stab jag, one that has been pushed thru the bore several times to "squeeze" it down, then coat it with JB, worked into the patch with the finger. Run it thru the bore one or two times. If I'm real careful, there will not be any JB deposited on the face of the breech.

Then use a snug fitting bronze brush with a bore guide, and give it 10 push strokes, from chamber to muzzle. Yes, the brush is removed after it exits the muzzle. I never pull it back across the crown. Then one dry patch, followed by a patch wet with Hoppe's. Let it soak for a few minutes, 3 or 4 dry patch's, & 'scope with the Hawkeye.

Depending on how much carbon I see, I may or may not repeat the process. As said, I do not attempt to take it all out. I just want to keep it under control. If I took all trace of fouling out, the barrel would then require 10 to as many as 20 fouling shots before it started to shoot again, a waste of ammo & barrel life.

Most of my barrels are Krieger & Bartleins & they are all cleaned with the same routine, usually about every 300 ( with varget powder) to 400 (with VihtaVouri) rounds.

Recently broke in a new 6BR, 8 twist Krieger and had a section of copper buildup in the grooves only, for a distance of about 6", midway down the barrel. I tried Butch's with o'night soaking, Sweet's & Warthog 1134 with the 10 to 15 minute time limits & none would remove the copper, as verified with the borescope. Patch's coming out white do not indicate a clean bore! I have no idea why these solvents, especially the Warthog, (previously worked fine) would not remove the copper, but 10 push strokes with the JB & bronze brush removed it all.

I know some will dis-agree with the above, and so be it. It works for me and all verified with the borescope.

 

[40X Guy]

To follow up on fdschusters post I push my borescope into the chamber until I see the carbon ring, then mark the borescope tube with a sharpie and that is the depth I need to go in. I then grab an older cleaning rod I chopped up and then I mark that at the same length and using a larger bore guide I apply JB paste on the end of a nylon brush one caliber larger and spin it about 20-30 revolutions at the carbon ring. Then wet patch and check with borescope again. Usually I only have to do this once and the ring is gone.

My 6.5X47L would develop a nasty carbon ring after only 50-60 rounds and I often wondered why groups would open up slightly until I bought a Hawkeye and had a few talks with fdschuster at the local matches we attend. Regular patching and brushing does not get the carbon out, as mentioned before if the patch comes out white does not mean its clean.

Frank

 

[Win94ae]

Win94ae: Nice pics. Wish I could get them like that. Do have some special photo equipment?

Nothing special, it is an Olympus Tough Tg-310 camera, ($175.) I put a flashlight at the muzzle and take the pics from the breech using the optical and digital zoom on the macro setting.

...

Someone asked about the ring privately and I thought I would post this picture here displaying a carbon ring. I'm not quite sure that the message was sent properly.

It is hard to see since there were only 20 or so shots taken without cleaning. The 30-30 probably doesn't leave a great of a ring as some of the barrel burners do.

 

[jo191145]

And some powders that cause carbon problems in some cartridges do not cause apparent problems in others.
For instance, W-748 has been one of my favorites in the 204R. Simply for the fact it creates enough soot to dissuade copper fouling yet does not seem to build upon itself causing carbon fouling accuracy loss. Used to run 500+ rounds of naked pills through two different barrels during the course of a competitive season. Never a patch down the barrel. Accuracy, while not the tightest was tight enough and consistent day in and day out.

On the other hand my love affair with W-748 did not fair so well when I introduced it to my 6BR 1-14 twist.
Tried it with WS2 coated 55 Noslers. Needed to jump em roughly .040" in my barrel.
After 50 or so rounds of load development without cleaning it felt as if I was jamming the bullet. Odd!!
Remeasured DTL with the Hornady tool and it said I was indeed jamming .012"

Looked at DTL measurement from the AM. Compared it to afternoon.
Got all confused ;D
Scrubbed the barrel clean and suddenly the AM measurement was spot on again.
I had pushed the throat back roughly .052" in 50 rds. That test ended quickly

Use any powder with an R in front of it and you had best pay very close attention to that throat area. JMO

 

[Bert]

Pics of the carbon removal would be great

 

[BoydAllen]

Although I agree with you that your use of Sweets may be unnecessary, it seems to me that your cleaning routine is a little on the light side. Having said that, the powders used, number of shots between cleaning, how soon you are cleaning after shooting, and the pressure levels of your loads are all factors that relate to the amount, characteristics, how much effort is required to remove powder fouling, that may turn into hard carbon in those areas of the barrel where pressure is the highest. Fortunately, bore scopes are not as rare as they once were, I suggest that you start by determining if your cleaning regimen is working before changing it. Perhaps a gunsmith in your area has one. If it turns out that your white patches have been lying to you, you can always adopt a more aggressive cleaning procedure.

A friend, who has a bore scope, told me of a way to feel a carbon ring. After you have finished cleaning and drying a barrel, start a snug fitting patch and advance it in the bore a few inches, then slowly pull it back toward the chamber, slowly, holding the rod handle between your thumb and forefinger, and if you feel any increase in resistance as the patch passes through the throat, this is an indication that the barrel has a carbon ring. I suggest that you start with this test, and then get back to us with the results. Good Luck.

 

[lpreddick]

Win94ae: great photos! the "carbon ring" in the last few thous of the neck portion of the chamber is obviously different from the carbon deposited in the bore and more difficult to remove. the ring in the chamber is very easily seen with the hawkeye viewing at a right angle or perpendicular to the chamber. your photos are at an angle and i wonder how much of the "ring" in the photo is actually a shadow from the bore light shining over the very short 45 degree angle that transitions the neck portion of the chamber to the freebore. perpendicular photos of the ring before and during it's removal would be very educational as to the resistence of the ring to removal. i have done so with my hawkeye and noted it's gradual removal.