Barrels: Are All Customs Pretty Much The Same?

[Phil3]

I read repeated accounts of various barrels shooting very well, all the way from the highly regarded Krieger to a cheaper Douglas barrel or something far less common or popular. Some are cut-rifled, some are button-rifled. Is the Criterion barrel, oft regarded as a cheaper, lesser Krieger, really inferior to the Krieger? Are they all so good now, that there is little practical difference in performance? I mean, even factory Savage barrels seem to shoot very well (if not all the time).

Phil

 

[Sling]

I have shot barrels from just about every custom barrel manufacture. No doubt they are better than factory barrels but day in & day out, I want a cut-rifled Bartlein or Brux. Next choice would be button barrel from Broughton or Benchmark. I`m not sure how Kreiger & Criterion are related but I know that you dont see them (Criterion) on the circuit.

 

[SS427]

I would take a look at the equipment lists of who is winning the matches and draw your own conclusions. That is how I make a choice when I'm buying custom rifle parts. Don't think I've ever seen Criterion on one of those lists.

 

[abishai]

All barrels have their own personality ..... A bartlien is the one I would take to the prom . Brux is The hot sister , Krieger is voted most likely to succeed , and pac nor is already pregnant ......

 

[jscandale]

When it come to choosing a barrel, most folks are too afraid to try something other than what someone else tells them to do. They all shoot well and some last marginally longer than others. You can either just buy one of the many barrels available or play follow the leader like most folks.

JS

 

[broncman]

Guys....please say which "circuit" or discipline your are talking about! We are not mind readers...... Not sure about Benchrest, but Kriegers, Brux, Bartleins have won there fair shares of F Class matches. Criterion have won some club level matches as well as the others.

 

[flat7]

Not all custom barrels are equal, not to say that you can't get a cheaper barrel to shoot well but you decrease your odds. I am a machinist and worked for a couple of years in a barrel shop. We produced custom barrels and production barrels. the difference, mostly the price. button barrels take about 30 to 75 seconds to rifle and cut rifling takes about an hour. Many button rifle barrel producers claim to relieve the stress after this process but they can't remove it all. that would require heating the barrel high enough that it would remove all the tempering in the barrel. that's why all carbon wrapped barrels are cut rifling barrels. There is a good article at borderbarrels.com that expains a lot of the process if your interested.
And remember, this is just my opinion from my experience. flat7

 

[jwink]

I've seen good customs and bad customs. I believe it has a lot more to do with the smith doing the work on it. I personally have a Rem 700 Varmint in 22-250, with a 24X on it, found a load of 8202 brx that puts them consistently puts 5 in at a 100 in the .2-.3's if I do my part, not bad for a woodchuck gun with a factory barrel. I was going to put a Kreiger tube on it shortly after purchasing the gun, my smith asked why, if it was shooting that good in the first place. The only things done to this rifle since purchase was to float the barrel and had a Rifle Basics trigger installed and set at 1#,1oz. and worked up the sweetheart load to push 50 grain lead.

It proves pretty girls can come from ugly families, just not all the time.

 

[dickn52]

They are tubes of steel and stuff. They are subject to all kinds of issues if not done right. You are talking about the craftsmanship here. I ditto the recommendation of looking at the pros and seeing what they picked. It will tell you who they think crafts the best end product.

 

[Steve3]

You can spend weeks researching this or you could just buy what the winners are shooting. As mentioned already the Criterions have a very good reputation for what they are. If I buy the Savage LRPV in 6BR and it doesn't shoot to my liking I will try the Criterion or McGowen barrel. If and when I build a Dasher or 6BR and use a BAT or a sister, I will use a Krieger or one of the other sister barrels. It would depend on what my gunsmith wants to use.

Phil - you are asking very good questions but keep in mind you are going to need some serious trigger time with a centerfire cartridge to make all of this more than just academic. Keep it simple, the rifle is just a part of the total accuracy package.

Best.

 

[riverwolf1]

Short Range BR, Krieger, Bartlein, Hart, Shilen! once in a while Brux, Broughton.

 

[dkhunt14]

Williamsport 1000 yard Match 10. Heavy gun Broughton 13; Krieger 22; Bartlein 2; Hart 6; Lilja 2. Light gun Broughton 16; Krieger 20; Bartlein 8; Hart 3; Lilja 1. Now some guys don't list and some change without changing equipment list. The barrels that won the relays group and score Heavy gun Broughton 4; Bartlein 1; Krieger 13; Lilja 2. The light gun was Broughton 6; Krieger 6; Bartlein 1. Now this is probably a fairly good idea of the barrels that are shot and winning.

 

[VaniB]

Phil,
With all due respect, after reading your opening post, you look to be already very well educated and informed on the subject.....as I find is the case with many of your threads that I've read. (ie; you're rarely ever a clueless newby) You are asking these well experienced shooters to choose and pick between the top echelon of barrels, like asking a rich guy to choose between Lexus and-Mercedes, a pro photographer to choose between Canon-Nikon, or the gal who just finished her 6th facelift to pick between a Rolex or Cartier. You have reached a point in your sport where you are engaging in the splitting of hairs that are of the same thickness, texture, and color. Now YOU are the one who gets to apply that wealth of reading and researching you have done in making the final decision of which you think you would like to try.

 

[BoydAllen]

There are significant differences in custom barrels. The question is whether these differences are important for the use that you have in mind. I look at it this way. If you consider that in the total cost of a barrel job, the blank is but a fraction of the total cost, and that the average shooter may get several years use from a barrel, the difference in cost per year of the best barrel that you can buy, vs. what you can get a deal on becomes insignificant. If you are less concerned with getting the highest level of accuracy, and do not explore every avenue in its pursuit, then that is a different matter. Virtually any properly lapped barrel will be a real pleasure to clean compared to the average factory barrel, and that when combined with the correction of action flaws, a good bedding job, and load workup, will produce satisfying results for most field uses.

 

[KevinThomas]

Phil3,

What you're really buying here is a chance at getting a good barrel, from any of the various makers out there. The chances are significantly higher with the better quality barrels, and vastly less with the bargain priced barrels. I've seen some of the lesser quality barrels shoot very well, but those were the exceptions. Lots of run of the mill, and more than a few true "crap" barrels for every one that shot well. When going with one of the top end barrel makers, those odds are reversed. I've gotten the occasional problem barrel from the better barrel makers, but they were the rare exception, the they stood behind them.

It's already been suggested that you go with whatever the best shooters are using, if you want to up the odds of getting a good one, and that's generally pretty good advice. If David Tubb, Norm Houle, Tony Boyer or some other champion shooter is using a particular brand of barrel, there's probably pretty good reason for that. If you notice that none of them are using certain brands, yeah, there's probably pretty good reasons for that, too. The favored brands vary a bit from discipline to discipline, but the general principle remains the same.

The barrels all look pretty much the same, but there's a tremendous amount of differences that go into them, and that's why there's so much difference in price. You mentioned cut barrels, and yes, there's some very good reasons to favor them in many cases. But they're also about the most labor intensive and expensive barrels to produce. Their prices will, of course, reflect that fact. Buttoned barrels are all produced by the same basic process, but again, there's a great deal of differences that go into their production, which you generally can't "see" in the finished product. Was the blank drilled and finish reamed before being buttoned, or was it just drilled and then buttoned? The reaming adds an extra step, but generally produces a better barrel, Again, you can't tell by looking at them, but the differences are there, and will be reflected in the price. Bottom line here, a cheap barrel is almost never a bargain, and you need to match your choice to what you're wanting to do with it. If I'm building an AR to use for general plinking, some casual varminting or that sort of thing, then a cheap buttoned barrel makes perfect sense. However, if I'm building an AR for Service Rifle completion at Perry, you can bet I'll be looking at nothing but good barrels right from the get-go.

 

[Ackman]

Years ago I fished the longrange boats a lot for tuna and wahoo in Mexico. Some guy'd do well on the troll with a particular jig, and others would start using it. Maybe other stuff worked just as good, but more people using it meant more fish caught....it would become the hot jig. In every endeavor, people are followers. Shooting is no different.

Custom barrels seem to be much less fussy about bullets than factory barrels, and they don't foul near as much.....I believe chamber throat smoothness is also a factor. My custom barrels are from 13 or 14 different makers, both cut and button rifled. Most of them are chambered and used. Shooting them I can't tell any difference one from another. With certain exception I'd buy any of them again. Some foul a bit less than others and are a bit easier to clean - but it's hard to compare when shooting different cartridges or powder. In other words, shooting them you won't notice a difference between one maker and another. Plus there can be variation between individual barrels of the same make. Worrying about what's on the winner board of one or another competition..... buying a particular barrel because so-and-so did this-or-that with it........I won't say it. So-and-so might well have tried 10 or 20 barrels to find that one best one.

Button vs. cut.........I once had two 700Rem's done by the same riflebuilder, a guy who did lots of benchrest stuff. One a 14twist Shilen (button), the other a fluted 12twist K&P (cut), same length. These were .223's both in McMillan hunterBR stocks. Fired brass would interchange. They both shot best with the EXACT same load - same accuracy, same velocity - and both cleaned up the same. I couldn't tell one from another by how they shot.

 

[Phil3]

Phil,
With all due respect, after reading your opening post, you look to be already very well educated and informed on the subject.....as I find is the case with many of your threads that I've read. (ie; you're rarely ever a clueless newby) You are asking these well experienced shooters to choose and pick between the top echelon of barrels, like asking a rich guy to choose between Lexus and-Mercedes, a pro photographer to choose between Canon-Nikon, or the gal who just finished her 6th facelift to pick between a Rolex or Cartier. You have reached a point in your sport where you are engaging in the splitting of hairs that are of the same thickness, texture, and color. Now YOU are the one who gets to apply that wealth of reading and researching you have done in making the final decision of which you think you would like to try.

Please note I never asked that anyone choose a barrel for me. I only asked a broader question on any meaningful differences between upper and lower echelon custom barrels, as I have never found any info on custom barrel performance differences. If choosing amongst these barrels is splitting hairs, that answers my question (pretty much little difference). I’ll refrain from asking a follow-up question, the reason explained in my next post.

Phil

 

[Phil3]

Years ago I fished the longrange boats a lot for tuna and wahoo in Mexico. Some guy'd do well on the troll with a particular jig, and others would start using it. Maybe other stuff worked just as good, but more people using it meant more fish caught....it would become the hot jig. In every endeavor, people are followers. Shooting is no different.

This human trait may be very prevalent on barrel choice, since for many of us, there is no good practical, quantifiable, valid way to compare barrel performance. Without such evidence, we follow others.

Phil

 

[Phil3]

It has become quite clear, over some months, that my posts and questions are increasingly unwelcome on the forum. This has been made plainly evident not just through public forum responses, but also through repeated personal insults and attacks on private messages from a multitude of members. My intent, through my posts, has been to not only learn something from responses, but also (when possible) to initiate a dialogue that would prove interesting and thought provoking, to experienced and novice shooters alike. Too often, some members seize upon my words as an opportunity to express their hatred of someone they do not even know. I have received the message and it is clear. I'll be taking myself out of the line of fire.

Phil

 

[Ringostar]

Being a shooter from Wisconsin, I have Brux, Krieger and Criterion as local manufactures. Brux being the closest, about 10 min drive. I shoot theirs and they treat me very well. The guys from all three shops shoot at our local F-class matches, and all shoot good. It usually comes down to making the right wind calls! Criterion was the button rifled branch from Krieger, but Steve that ran the shop bought out the name and machinery. He recently moved to a new building. I'm saying that a Criterion button barrel can shoot as well as a cut barrel if set up properly. Now if some people will avoid Brux, I can get mine sooner!