Barrel wear using certain powders?

[r bose]

I've heard lately that some powders are "harder" on barrels than others. Is their a list of these powders or does anyone have personal experience with this happening?

 

[Patch700]

Generally speaking the "double based" powders are in this category.

For example regarding VV powders you will have let's say vv-N150 , that is their single base powder and along with that they will have a 500 series powder of relative same burn rate yet in double base for so as to obtain more velocity (vv-N550 would be the double base version)
The trade off as you know would be temperature sensitivity due to the other components used in the making of the powder.

The powder mfgs will list what is and what isn't double based.

The upside to using a double base is increased velocity with a given amount of powder as compared to a powder of relative same burn rate but in single base form.

 

[Patch700]

I would recommend you read a post in this particular thread by member Laurie. It lends some insight in your question.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3858406.0

 

[MrMajestic]

I love the 90 gr. VLD in a .22 Velo Dog comment by Laurie! ;D

 

[RDavies]

I love the 90 gr. VLD in a .22 Velo Dog comment by Laurie! ;D

And I think if Laurie mentioned that cartridge, we can therefore deduce that the Great Britain team will be using that calibre in Connaught in 2017. Spread the word.

 

[MrMajestic]

LMAO, I'm a spreadin'! ;D

 

[TonyR]

Quickload has a value called Heat Potential which seems to have a good bit to do with barrel wear. One of the lowest I've found is N165 and one of the highest is H4350. Some very experienced shooter have told me that all else equal, N165 will have less barrel wear than H4350. That said, I love them both and use them where ever they work for me.

 

[r bose]

Thanks everyone for the responses. TonyR, I've heard that Winchester 748 has a lower burn temperature but it's dirty to clean a barrel after firing. Is this what you're referring to as Heat Potential?

 

[Erik Cortina]

N165 is on of the coldest burning powders you can buy. I have 1,300 rounds on my .284 Shehane and there are still tooling marks in the throat.

Heat potential is the temperature at which the powder burns. N165 is 3,500° and H4350 is close to 4,000° if I remember correctly. Double based powders are all over 4,000. QuickLOAD lists each powder's heat potential.

There is a spreadsheet on this site called barrel life spreadsheet. It has the heat potential for some powders and it's a good guide for what every powder can do to the life of a barrel.

 

[bigedp51]

Thanks everyone for the responses. TonyR, I've heard that Winchester 748 has a lower burn temperature but it's dirty to clean a barrel after firing. Is this what you're referring to as Heat Potential?

The military prefers double base ball powders for many reasons and a powder like Winchester 748 is slightly cooler burning than single base powders in the same burning rate. I have also read that the "dirty residue" left by many military grade ball powders is a barrel lubricant from the graphite and other chemicals added to the powder mixture. If you look at the Hodgdons website and their MSDS sheets you will see these ball powders have much more additives than single base powers do.

Also at 43,000 cup the peak flame temperature is just reaching the melting point of modern barrel steels, so in actuality your chamber pressure has more to do with barrel wear than the type powder used. As an example I use 748 in my 30-30 and 30-06 with the same weight bullets and your looking at 38,000 cup for the 30-30 and 48,000 cup for the 30-06. Meaning the chamber pressure of the 30-30 never reaches the melting point of the barrel steel while the 30-06 does.

Below is from
"A (Very) Short Course in Internal Ballistics"
http://www.frfrogspad.com/intballi.htm

"Another way of controlling the burning rate is with the use of a coating as used with ball powders, which are made with spherically shaped grains. The coating on the powder grain tends to hold back the rate of burning until the coating has burned through. These powders, called progressive burning give a peak pressure at a point in bullet travel even further along. Coating technology is important in small arms powders since without it the grains would sometimes have to be larger than practical.

Much has been made about ball powders being cooler burning than extruded powders, but the fact of the matter is that there really isn't much difference. Flame temperature is very close to the same for all smokeless powders and runs about 3300 degrees F. Ball type powders tend to be from 3200 to 3300 degrees F and extruded powders tend to run 3300 to 3400 degrees F but there is wide variation."

 

[TonyR]

Thanks everyone for the responses. TonyR, I've heard that Winchester 748 has a lower burn temperature but it's dirty to clean a barrel after firing. Is this what you're referring to as Heat Potential?

I think Erik has it right. I have seen the barrel life spreadsheet and it tries to take a number of other factors in to account as well such as peak pressure and grains of powder actually used. It seems to work for some cartridges I've used but not so well for others. Like many estimators, it may do a better job of estimating the differences between things than it does the actual values themselves.

 

[r bose]

So, my question turns to, does anyone actually start with a powder known to be "easier" on barrels initially and try to develop a good load with it, or do most handloaders go straight to the double base powders trying to get velocity over barrel life?

In other words, in a 308 would you give up 50-100 FPS to extend a barrels life (X) percentage? Whatever that preventage is?

Hope I'm making sense. I'm asking because these days replacing a barrel, including machine work could easily run $650 or so.

 

[Erik Cortina]

So, my question turns to, does anyone actually start with a powder known to be "easier" on barrels initially and try to develop a good load with it, or do most handloaders go straight to the double base powders trying to get velocity over barrel life?

In other words, in a 308 would you give up 50-100 FPS to extend a barrels life (X) percentage? Whatever that preventage is?

Hope I'm making sense. I'm asking because these days replacing a barrel, including machine work could easily run $650 or so.

I am a competition shooter and to me barrels are like race car tires, so I shoot what shoots best.

Now, as far as single base powders vs. double base, you will get more velocity with same pressure from double base powders at the expense of barrel life. If you go for the same speed as single base powder you will get lower pressure with double base powder, so barrel life should be same or better but brass life will be extended drastically. So, two ways to look at it.

 

[ShootDots]

So, my question turns to, does anyone actually start with a powder known to be "easier" on barrels initially and try to develop a good load with it, or do most handloaders go straight to the double base powders trying to get velocity over barrel life?

In other words, in a 308 would you give up 50-100 FPS to extend a barrels life (X) percentage? Whatever that preventage is?

Hope I'm making sense. I'm asking because these days replacing a barrel, including machine work could easily run $650 or so.

If you are using your rifle for hunting big game, chances are no powder will burn out your barrel under normal "lifetime hunting" situations. ON THE OTHER HAND, going for F-Class Competition, where 20+ shot strings are the norm, double based powders will eat your throat up quicker. However, having said that, if your rifle L-O-V-E-S that powder and your rifle groups 1/3m.o.a. (or thereabouts) out to 1000 yards, what then is the "price of winning"??!! I just developed a load in 1 of my Dashers that now uses VV N540. T-Rust me, N540 and N550 WILL eat up a barrel, under those Competitive circumstance, like candy! BUT I have never had a rifle groups like that, at the velocity I am spitting those 105VLD's out at! TO ME, it will be worth it>>>IF I WIN! And that surely is a BIG "IF"!!

 

[TonyR]

So, my question turns to, does anyone actually start with a powder known to be "easier" on barrels initially and try to develop a good load with it, or do most handloaders go straight to the double base powders trying to get velocity over barrel life?

In other words, in a 308 would you give up 50-100 FPS to extend a barrels life (X) percentage? Whatever that preventage is?

Hope I'm making sense. I'm asking because these days replacing a barrel, including machine work could easily run $650 or so.

I'm with Erik on this one. So far, I've never seen a place to mark barrel life on a score card, so I use whatever seems to work best for what I'm trying to do. I do research barrel life before I choose a cartridge and will use one that has better barrel life if it does what needs to be done. I rarely choose a powder because it gives the highest possible velocity unless it also gives the best vertical in the desired velocity band.