Just put your thumb on the top of stock
You can definitely see that
Barrel tuners. Good or a waste of time?
- Thread starter geordiesniper
- Start date
You can definitely see that
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
I own it and re read it often. Most of the work was done with a rather un accurate 270 barreled action and some of the people involved with the original testing dont even agree with the conclusions presented. Never the less its an interesting read.
richard
Gold $$ Contributor
I will give you my experience using Gene Beggs and Loker tuners. Before I start my hat is off to Gene for the pioneering work that he started with tuners.
For those that don't know me I shoot NBRSA group and do pretty decent. I also go preloaded and live and die by the tuner.
Just a few quick pointers. First off to know where you at with the node. To be on the PC side of the node, turning the tuner outwards should put V in the group. If the group gets tighter you are on the wrong side of the node. Let's say we start in the morning and start out with a .250 group. As the days warms up the groups will get smaller. At some point you will have to turn the tuner outwards to put a little V back in the group. If you shoot a zero and don't change anything your next group will probably not be very pretty. How many time have you seen a small group backed up by a big one?
Sometimes I will tweak the tuner in the middle of a group if it's shooting to small. With a tuner you can tune so tight you will shoot big.
Going preloaded requires a tuner that doesn't change POI with rotation.
Some do and some don't.
I do tuner sessions quite often and have gotten alot of people on track on how to use a tuner.
I don't look on this site very often but if you want more info e-mail me at rwbrensing@hotmail.com.
Richard Brensing
The right equipment does measure all directions to it's own limitations(the equipment). But I agree that the higher frequencies apparently don't matter, at least with where we are today in terms of accuracy. I debated with another tuner maker that his tuner, while being clamped to the threads, still moves and measurably..but that it didn't matter. He was quite course in telling me I didn't know what I was talking about, but he was wrong. Just like two pieces bolted together may work loose in a high frequency environment, his tuner moves, too. Does it hurt? Nope! Apparently not, but that doesn't change the point, which was clear at the time. I've always said that there are still plenty of things that we(I) don't yet fully understand about ALL of what's going on but the results tell us what matters and what doesn't. We can debate about things neither of us can confirm but there's no point and I prefer to stay with what I do know and can confirm, as long as it works! Lol! I am passionate about tuners though and I keep an open ear to the next level of understanding from anyone that has a good handle on it. Keep it coming!
GSPV
A failure to plan is a plan for failure.
If a theory lets you predict future behavior well enough for the task at hand, it’s a good theory. As Einstein said “As simple as possible, but no simpler”.
GSPV
A failure to plan is a plan for failure.
There are, theoretically, an infinite number of modes. But I’m 100% with you that it seems that we, for the most part, can just look at a couple of the lowest order modes for our task. I *think* that I remember Vaughn saying that he believed that Mode 3 was dominant. But, that was a *long* time ago.
Of course, the stock oscillates, the scope gets involved, Yadda. It’ll drive you crazy if you let it.
Best to divide and conquer, IMHO.
ergonsdad
Precision RAS Tuners
Bart
Have they looked a the 4 mode model or just the bending?
Harral's 4th mode is the one Chris Long's OBT theory is based on. But Long's frequency is way higher than Harral's mode 3 which Kolbe also ends up with the best frequency for positive compensation to correct for muzzle velocities. The 4th mode changes the muzzle bore diameters in micro-inches
I don't agree with Longs claims that enlarged bores at the muzzle hurts accuracy. The 4 or 5 Garand barrels I wore out had .002" bore and groove enlargement the last half inch or more but still tested 1 MOA at 600 yards. No bore guide used so steel cleaning rods rubbed away barrel steel. No bullet copper wash in that area is proof the diameters enlarged from .3078"/.2998" when new .
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Yes sir Alex!! Very well said and I agree completely with you when you say,
"There is only one main vibration pattern that affects the bullet."
You also said, "Most of the vibration we know of occurs once the bullet has left the barrel."
Yes sir, that is so true and as shooters, to concern ourselves with any other mode of vibration is a waste of time!
Although Vaughn, Litz, McCoy, Varmint Al, and other scientists have proven there are numerous modes of barrel vibration, we as shooters need only concern ourselves with one; the one you refer to that can be seen as a sine wave on the target.
Alright! Now we're getting down to the nitty gritty of what matters and what doesn't.Stay tuned (pun intended)
Gene Beggs
Jdne5b
Gold $$ Contributor
Hopefully all the nonsense didnt run @BartsBullets off. I can't be the only one who was looking forward to his post.
Hope not, I was too!
It's only been a few days and it appears he's changed his avatar. I'm sure he'll be back.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
No, you and I both wanted very much to hear his reply. I am interested in hearing a wide variety of different opinions and/or approaches to setting a tuner from people that know a lot more about it than I do. Then, I can do some testing and decide for myself which works best for my particular application. In most things involved in precision rifle shooting, I believe there are often a number of different ways to successfully achieve a given objective, not just one "correct" way. But it is necessary for individuals to not only be aware of different approaches, but also to try them out and determine empirically which works best in their hands.
That's mode 3 on Varmint Al's pages. Its frequencies parallel those of Kolbes. In my opinion.
Hey Guys!
I’m not run off! Just way too many non-shooting Theoretical experts on this thread for me! I started thinking to myself why do I want to just hand over one of the best things I’ve figured out in competitive shooting. Then have to argue about it with the same bunch.
Once it’s posted some will argue “it can’t be!” Another bunch will say it requires “more statistical analysis!” There will some that say I don’t think that will help! So why do it???
In the past three years I doubt there has been anyone that’s worked any harder then I have trying to figure out how to make these big 6mm bullets go into one hole and how to keep long range guns in tune! I’ve learned a lot and it’s been a hell of a journey!
Three things that Tony Boyer taught me to look for in a barrel;
1. A large load window
2. Is the barrel helping in the wind
3. (The Holy Grail) Point of Impact doesn’t change as the load goes up or down.
With the tuner in the right place with most Barrels I can get or at least improve on #1 and #3!
Not trying to tease you all, but I am questioning the wisdom of handing over a competitive edge and then having to explain and argue with the theoretical experts!
It’s just easier to Wish Everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
Bart
I’m not run off! Just way too many non-shooting Theoretical experts on this thread for me! I started thinking to myself why do I want to just hand over one of the best things I’ve figured out in competitive shooting. Then have to argue about it with the same bunch.
Once it’s posted some will argue “it can’t be!” Another bunch will say it requires “more statistical analysis!” There will some that say I don’t think that will help! So why do it???
In the past three years I doubt there has been anyone that’s worked any harder then I have trying to figure out how to make these big 6mm bullets go into one hole and how to keep long range guns in tune! I’ve learned a lot and it’s been a hell of a journey!
Three things that Tony Boyer taught me to look for in a barrel;
1. A large load window
2. Is the barrel helping in the wind
3. (The Holy Grail) Point of Impact doesn’t change as the load goes up or down.
With the tuner in the right place with most Barrels I can get or at least improve on #1 and #3!
Not trying to tease you all, but I am questioning the wisdom of handing over a competitive edge and then having to explain and argue with the theoretical experts!
It’s just easier to Wish Everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
Bart
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Bart - Jeremy and I both shoot in F-Class...your secrets will be totally safe with us and we will never use them to gain an edge against you in BR competition. So please, post away
.
jimmymac
Jim McGregor
@BartsBullets
I’d never argue with you. I don’t know shit. Just trying to learn. I can appreciate you keeping it to yourself though. Just wish you wouldn’t have put out that teaser.
Merry Christmas to you too.
I’d never argue with you. I don’t know shit. Just trying to learn. I can appreciate you keeping it to yourself though. Just wish you wouldn’t have put out that teaser.
Merry Christmas to you too.
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