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Barrel tuner / Muzzle brake combo - Any good?

johara1 said:
It's funny but my numbers are by far smaller than those mentioned and not at a club shoot. i had contacted a smith that makes tuners and i was told it would not help. Tuners evolved from rim fire where you can't adjust the load. It seems that they will help if you don't want to adjust your load. If you want a cheap tuner to try, drill and tap for set screws on a brake and screw away……. How can you tune a one hole group at 100 that are in the mid zeros? I think a good barrel and bullets is the answer. I think i'm going back to nothing hanging on the end…….. jim
The question is WHY would you tune groups that are in the mid zeroes.
I agree that it won't make them smaller than that. Obviously, the gun was well tuned when you shot those. If you go back and read my posts, you'll see that I don't claim improvement in individual group size over a perfectly in tune rifle without a tuner.
What I did say though, is that it will improve AGG'ING ability by widening the tune window and by allowing tuning at the line when needed. All guns suffer from some degree of loss of tune as conditions change. You either adjust the load for it, adjust a tuner for it...or live with where you finish.
 
gunsandgunsmithing said:
johara1 said:
It's funny but my numbers are by far smaller than those mentioned and not at a club shoot. i had contacted a smith that makes tuners and i was told it would not help. Tuners evolved from rim fire where you can't adjust the load. It seems that they will help if you don't want to adjust your load. If you want a cheap tuner to try, drill and tap for set screws on a brake and screw away……. How can you tune a one hole group at 100 that are in the mid zeros? I think a good barrel and bullets is the answer. I think i'm going back to nothing hanging on the end…….. jim
The question is WHY would you tune groups that are in the mid zeroes.
I agree that it won't make them smaller than that. Obviously, the gun was well tuned when you shot those. If you go back and read my posts, you'll see that I don't claim improvement in individual group size over a perfectly in tune rifle without a tuner.
What I did say though, is that it will improve AGG'ING ability by widening the tune window and by allowing tuning at the line when needed. All guns suffer from some degree of loss of tune as conditions change. You either adjust the load for it, adjust a tuner for it...or live with where you finish.




Thats what i said why and if a tuner would help a barrel load combination that shoots that small …….. no Agg; records are set over the season no load change on two guns over the years conditions. I feel if you do the work and have a good barrel and bullets trumps the use of a tuner at long range. I don't even chase the lands, i would set the barrel back first. i have only saw a very small number of tuners used over the years at 1000 yds …….. jim
 
johara1 said:
I can see the tuner at short range, They don't weigh powder to .01 nor do they trim and point bullets, and they don't know what ES. or SD. is and sure don't anneal and for the most part they don't pre load. A tuner is a crutch but it works for those that can't do the things necessary to get the smallest groups short range. On the other hand long range you don't see them that often and mostly only for a year. Makes the gun harder to balance, does nothing to make it shoot better at a 1000. If you tuned your loads for the best performance no tuner will make it better, If can shoot sub .1 groups with ES in the single digits @ 100 and shoot in 2"@ 1000 What can the tuner do? The conditions a worth more than that. I sure shot a lot of 4 and 1's out there 4 were under an inch and 1 opened it up to a 2" How can you tune what you can't see. Jim O'Hara

Jim,
I believe that a some can tune a bare CF barrel by just changing the load to achieve a high level of accuracy. However, how many barrels do you go thru to achieve a .1-.2 level of accuracy? The tuner can easily adjust the effective length of the barrel along with adding addition weight (RAS type tuner) and turn a good barrel with a good load into a great shooter. IMO, the RF shooters are way ahead of the CF shooters that tune by mostly focusing on the varying load.
Ben
 
Ben ;D That was a mouth full . ;D
Finally someone explained it in a way all shooter can understand.
Yes rim fire shooter are years ahead of center fire shooters
Thanks Larry ;D
 
BenPerfected said:
johara1 said:
I can see the tuner at short range, They don't weigh powder to .01 nor do they trim and point bullets, and they don't know what ES. or SD. is and sure don't anneal and for the most part they don't pre load. A tuner is a crutch but it works for those that can't do the things necessary to get the smallest groups short range. On the other hand long range you don't see them that often and mostly only for a year. Makes the gun harder to balance, does nothing to make it shoot better at a 1000. If you tuned your loads for the best performance no tuner will make it better, If can shoot sub .1 groups with ES in the single digits @ 100 and shoot in 2"@ 1000 What can the tuner do? The conditions a worth more than that. I sure shot a lot of 4 and 1's out there 4 were under an inch and 1 opened it up to a 2" How can you tune what you can't see. Jim O'Hara

Jim,
I believe that a some can tune a bare CF barrel by just changing the load to achieve a high level of accuracy. However, how many barrels do you go thru to achieve a .1-.2 level of accuracy? The tuner can easily adjust the effective length of the barrel along with adding addition weight (RAS type tuner) and turn a good barrel with a good load into a great shooter. IMO, the RF shooters are way ahead of the CF shooters that tune by mostly focusing on the varying load.
Ben


Ben, i have right now 14 barrels down in the basement all will shoot in a.1……… they are average barrels with the exception of one…….. Rimfire shooters use tuners out of need, they can not adjust the load. Center fire shooters can, but most don't, most don't use the same reamer they use what is available at the smith. rim fire and short range center fire shooters shoot under very controlled conditions, long range is not the case. You have unseen conditions that affect group size. so you have a gun that can shoot in a .1 at 100 it should shoot in a 1" at 1000…… how many do you see…. zip,you can not see a 1mph change. tuners do not change bad ES. or SD. granted they can change the shape of the group and so can the load. If you tune to a sub.1 at 100 with a Dasher you you can see 1/2 of.1 changes in powder charge in group size and shape. You have to give credit to Tom, Alex and the gang at Montana they do the work and don't have screw something on the end of the barrel to try to do it for them………… jim
 
johara1 said:
BenPerfected said:
johara1 said:
I can see the tuner at short range, They don't weigh powder to .01 nor do they trim and point bullets, and they don't know what ES. or SD. is and sure don't anneal and for the most part they don't pre load. A tuner is a crutch but it works for those that can't do the things necessary to get the smallest groups short range. On the other hand long range you don't see them that often and mostly only for a year. Makes the gun harder to balance, does nothing to make it shoot better at a 1000. If you tuned your loads for the best performance no tuner will make it better, If can shoot sub .1 groups with ES in the single digits @ 100 and shoot in 2"@ 1000 What can the tuner do? The conditions a worth more than that. I sure shot a lot of 4 and 1's out there 4 were under an inch and 1 opened it up to a 2" How can you tune what you can't see. Jim O'Hara

Jim,
I believe that a some can tune a bare CF barrel by just changing the load to achieve a high level of accuracy. However, how many barrels do you go thru to achieve a .1-.2 level of accuracy? The tuner can easily adjust the effective length of the barrel along with adding addition weight (RAS type tuner) and turn a good barrel with a good load into a great shooter. IMO, the RF shooters are way ahead of the CF shooters that tune by mostly focusing on the varying load.
Ben


Ben, i have right now 14 barrels down in the basement all will shoot in a.1……… they are average barrels with the exception of one…….. Rimfire shooters use tuners out of need, they can not adjust the load. Center fire shooters can, but most don't, most don't use the same reamer they use what is available at the smith. rim fire and short range center fire shooters shoot under very controlled conditions, long range is not the case. You have unseen conditions that affect group size. so you have a gun that can shoot in a .1 at 100 it should shoot in a 1" at 1000…… how many do you see…. zip,you can not see a 1mph change. tuners do not change bad ES. or SD. granted they can change the shape of the group and so can the load. If you tune to a sub.1 at 100 with a Dasher you you can see 1/2 of.1 changes in powder charge in group size and shape. You have to give credit to Tom, Alex and the gang at Montana they do the work and don't have screw something on the end of the barrel to try to do it for them………… jim

Jim, I give the top CF & RF Benchrest shooters a tremendous amount of credit for their skills as shooters. My point is that many don't have to the funds, time or skills to run with the top 2-5% of the shooters. A tuner (turd to some😀) on the barrel can move the average shooters game significantly forward for less than $1000.
Ben
 
BenPerfected said:
johara1 said:
BenPerfected said:
johara1 said:
I can see the tuner at short range, They don't weigh powder to .01 nor do they trim and point bullets, and they don't know what ES. or SD. is and sure don't anneal and for the most part they don't pre load. A tuner is a crutch but it works for those that can't do the things necessary to get the smallest groups short range. On the other hand long range you don't see them that often and mostly only for a year. Makes the gun harder to balance, does nothing to make it shoot better at a 1000. If you tuned your loads for the best performance no tuner will make it better, If can shoot sub .1 groups with ES in the single digits @ 100 and shoot in 2"@ 1000 What can the tuner do? The conditions a worth more than that. I sure shot a lot of 4 and 1's out there 4 were under an inch and 1 opened it up to a 2" How can you tune what you can't see. Jim O'Hara

Jim,
I believe that a some can tune a bare CF barrel by just changing the load to achieve a high level of accuracy. However, how many barrels do you go thru to achieve a .1-.2 level of accuracy? The tuner can easily adjust the effective length of the barrel along with adding addition weight (RAS type tuner) and turn a good barrel with a good load into a great shooter. IMO, the RF shooters are way ahead of the CF shooters that tune by mostly focusing on the varying load.
Ben


Ben, i have right now 14 barrels down in the basement all will shoot in a.1……… they are average barrels with the exception of one…….. Rimfire shooters use tuners out of need, they can not adjust the load. Center fire shooters can, but most don't, most don't use the same reamer they use what is available at the smith. rim fire and short range center fire shooters shoot under very controlled conditions, long range is not the case. You have unseen conditions that affect group size. so you have a gun that can shoot in a .1 at 100 it should shoot in a 1" at 1000…… how many do you see…. zip,you can not see a 1mph change. tuners do not change bad ES. or SD. granted they can change the shape of the group and so can the load. If you tune to a sub.1 at 100 with a Dasher you you can see 1/2 of.1 changes in powder charge in group size and shape. You have to give credit to Tom, Alex and the gang at Montana they do the work and don't have screw something on the end of the barrel to try to do it for them………… jim

Jim, I give the top CF & RF Benchrest shooters a tremendous amount of credit for their skills as shooters. My point is that many don't have to the funds, time or skills to run with the top 2-5% of the shooters. A tuner (turd to some😀) on the barrel can move the average shooters game significantly forward for less than $1000.
Ben



I do not own a tuner, tho I do shoot brakes, but believe this makes sense.
 
You can sure enough tune a barrel with what it cost for a tuner and a smith to put it on. If you have your own reamer the new barrel will shoot the same load, right out of the box. All my barrels are chambered with the same reamer with in a .0005 different makers and different guns all shoot the same load. So now talk time and cost effective……….. jim
 
Almost everyday I read the bulletin here. Often times the bulletin features award winning guns. I have never seen one with a tuner. There is no national or world gong championships. I will listen to someone like Johara1 that can shoot others 600 yard group size at 1000, in official standards.
 
Jim, what tuners have you owned and would you explain in detail how you adjusted them, respectivly? You keep on harping that a gun can be tuned to shoot well without one....nobody is arguing with that.
 
johara1 said:
Harrells ………. tuner brake…. jim
Jim, unreal, man! You said in the pm that you sent me that you didn't want to brand bash...and then you call them out out by name. Then, you didn't answer the rest of my question.
Yes, they add weight and no, if you're tuned to the hilt without one, no tuner will make it shoot substantially smaller. Again..no one is arguing that point.


Frankly, while you may be one hell of a shooter, it's clear that your experience with tuners is very limited....but you bash all of them.


You called tuners a crutch a few posts back. I guess power steering is a crutch in Nascar, then.
Your opinion has been made clear here. No problem. But there are many, and a growing number at that, I might add..that see tuners differently than you do and do have a lot of experience with them, too.


If tuning by powder charge and seating depth, etc. works for you, by all means, don't let tuners stop you from doing things the way you want to do them.
 
Yep your right, i shouldn't have mentioned one brand. I'm not bashing them in short range, but they all work the same not one better than the other. Do you shoot a 600 or 1000 yds?. ….jim
 
Would you have different settings for different distances?
How does it vary with temperature and altitude?
My competition rig has different settings for different distances to the target. I've put the main node at the muzzle by adjusting with the tuner, done a ladder test, and then doing 3 shot groups at different distances turning the thimble 1/16th of a turn per group.
The rifle likes a setting for each distance being able to shoot between 0.2 to 0.3 moa 5 shot groups while on those particular settings. If using the setting for a different distance (at the same rifle range) , it opens up to 0.75 to 1 moa.
What is your experience?
 
In the short range CF game, in the varmint classes, there is a rule that governs the maximum size of different parts of barrels, diameters, taper, minimum length, and in that corner of shooting competition it has been determined by at least one winning shooter, whose record speaks for itself, that a tuner may be used differently than most would suppose that it would or should be. Through trial and error, an initial setting can be arrived at, at which point the setting is locked, and further tuning done using conventional means. Gene Buckys has done very well using this method, and of course others have done well without a tuner. Buckys says that he has not found that a tuner will improve the peak accuracy of a given barrel, but that its advantage lies in its broadening tuning loads, which of course makes keeping ones rifle in tune through ambient condition changes...but that is with rifles that are designed for short range.

Having reviewed those facts, let us jump to the published work of one Varmint Al, a very bright fellow whose work tended to revolve around what is commonly called positive compensation, setting up a rifle barrel so that lower velocity shots exit the bore with the barrel pointing higher than higher velocity, so that the vertical differences in points of impact are less than would be produced by ES alone. In that work (Varmint Al's) He described three methods by which positive compensation could be achieved, hanging a weight at the muzzle so that the rate of muzzle rise was slowed to the point where bullets exited while it was on the rise, lengthening the barrel to accomplish the same thing, and making the barrel less stiff in the middle by reducing its diameter in that area.

I mention his work to point out that long range rifles generally incorporate one of these methods, a longer barrel. This is not to say that a movable weight would have no effect, but to point out that its sized may not have to be nearly as great as would be needed for short stiff short range barrels. Yes, this is merely unproven conjecture, but if we ban all of that, think of how few posts their would be, and how much less opportunity for creative disagreement ;-)

Now to the question, the point of the post, have any of you, or anyone that you know of experimented with more subtle weights at the end of typical length long range barrels, anyone except Erik Cortina? When you think a bit about his design, the amount of weight displaced is really quite small, being limited to the amount that the barrel diameter weight extends past the crown.
sb300wsm06.png
 
I'm on same boat that it really comes down to bullets and barrels. Properly done, a tuner may help, but since we can tweak loads, one would have to weigh the benefits of simply loading a few more loads above and below the "load" versus loading the same load and tweaking a tuner. One must have to determine if the additional cost is worth it as well. For people that do not have their own set up to turn barrels, it could get pricey to add tuners to the end of barrels.

I remember someone mentioning that adjusting powder is like adjusting the tuner. Not sure on the validity of that saying, but it makes sense. we are simply changing the harmonics to get as close to the desired position on the barrel whip. Do it with the load or with the tuner.

John Meyers, who just won the F Class mid range nationals yesterday, uses a tuner and so does other top F Class shooters. But there are many that don't use a tuner either. I know John Meyers has a method to the tuner madness, but I bet many of us, myself included, would be setting the tuner in the beginning and most likely never touching it during a match. So, why not just skip all the complexity and develop a good load, in a wide window, that can shoot in multiple conditions?

That being said, I have never used one and have been thinking about trying one just to try it. If i did, it would look similar to Erik's design. Maybe I should draw one up and have it made...o
 
I'm on same boat that it really comes down to bullets and barrels. Properly done, a tuner may help, but since we can tweak loads, one would have to weigh the benefits of simply loading a few more loads above and below the "load" versus loading the same load and tweaking a tuner. One must have to determine if the additional cost is worth it as well. For people that do not have their own set up to turn barrels, it could get pricey to add tuners to the end of barrels.

I remember someone mentioning that adjusting powder is like adjusting the tuner. Not sure on the validity of that saying, but it makes sense. we are simply changing the harmonics to get as close to the desired position on the barrel whip. Do it with the load or with the tuner.

John Meyers, who just won the F Class mid range nationals yesterday, uses a tuner and so does other top F Class shooters. But there are many that don't use a tuner either. I know John Meyers has a method to the tuner madness, but I bet many of us, myself included, would be setting the tuner in the beginning and most likely never touching it during a match. So, why not just skip all the complexity and develop a good load, in a wide window, that can shoot in multiple conditions?

That being said, I have never used one and have been thinking about trying one just to try it. If i did, it would look similar to Erik's design. Maybe I should draw one up and have it made...o
Why would someone put a tuner on a gun and not use it . Larry
 
Why would someone put a tuner on a gun and not use it . Larry

what I meant is i think people would put it on, develop a load, tweak the tuner, then never touch it again afterwards. people can do the same thing with tweaking a load. John Meyers tweaks his tuner ever relay it seems and I would have to assume it is based on data that he has collected over many years and lots of testing.
 
what I meant is i think people would put it on, develop a load, tweak the tuner, then never touch it again afterwards. people can do the same thing with tweaking a load. John Meyers tweaks his tuner ever relay it seems and I would have to assume it is based on data that he has collected over many years and lots of testing.
If conditions change then turn the tuner .
They are easy to use takes a little learning.
Over 6 years I have used the RAS tuners . I don't have a gun without one .
I have the first one we ever made .
I could be a little bias but I feel we have the best . Larry
 

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