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Barrel torque versus lub and calibre

Butch i don't know what your abilities are . i am sure you are a capable machinist. i know you have some fine products out there . if you want to exchange resumes we can do it through PMS . all i am stating is the difference between class fits 1,2,2Ag,3 and interfernce fit . some people out there may not know what i am talking about i am sure you do . the 2Ag pertains directly to the first post on this thread . no disrespect intended to you butch . you expressed concerns about me not using grease on barrel assembly . if i machine my thread correctly i'm saying that i don't need grease to put it together.if you are running an interference fit you will need grease . if you are running switch barrels i would use grease . up to class 3 threads and excluding the 2Ag it will go together without galling with no grease . especially if machining using inserts . T.R.
 
Besides thread class/fit there's 'friction coefficients' involved in this procedure. Galling, in many of the circumstanses I've seen, is directly related to the smoothness (or lack of) of the mating threads and/or an interference fit. I'm not infering anyone here makes 'rough' threads, but more "smoothness" can be achieved thru polishing for less friction resulting in no, or at least less, chance of galling. Like BoydAllen says "the best shooting barrels are hand snapped". We carry over many "bench rest" practices to rifles for other disiplines, why not thread fit , too? or, something close to it. A rifle isn't "finished" until it wears some sort of finish, be it bluing (slow rust or 'hot caustic') or a coating is applied as per customer specs. This is how I get around some of the problems associated with 'finishes'. Not everyone wants 'bead blast'. Sure, barrels being assembled/changed at the range would need lube, repeated assembly/disassembly would require it. But, I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about barrels that will be there next year and some from now on. Some of the 'stuff' I see on factory tenon connections kinda' reminds me of the stuff plumbers use on their threaded connections. Not everything will effect bluing or coating, but oil/grease/never seize will, given a chance to.
 
Greg and Eddie,
How right you are! Not in their class by any means, but see why a lot of the top shooters and smiths are not on the net.
Butch
 
I don't believe that I said that. I was passing on the directions that one Benchrest smith gave one customer, and the fact that these highly subjective instructions worked, for a very large caliber. I do not give my barrels a snap. I tighten them with a rear entry action wrench that has a T handle of significant length, and I lean on it. BTW do you guys follow target shooting at all? The fellows that I look to for the advice and that I follow, shoot and build match winning rifles, and, in some cases, hold what are generally referred to as World Records. Their tenon and action threads are not rough. At this point I feel like I am trying to impart what winning formula one engine builders, and their associated crew chiefs do to fellows who have not been to a race. If what you are doing works for you, by all means continue.
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?39476-Anti-seize-and-thread-galling-Note-from-Kelbly-s
 
BoydAllen, sorry about the 'hand snap' thing. My bad. But yes, I build many tacticals. Also, occansionally build higher end hunting rifles, wood by hand from a blank. I'm real glad you've got friends that 'build match winning rifles' and 'hold world records'. As for 'roughness', there are many 'degrees' of that. And yes, I'll continue what 'works for me' as I lean heavily on practical experience rather than the net. It's been stated before on many different forms in many different threads, "There's always more than one way to skin a cat".
 
Actually, I was just using the net for an easily available resource. I have been lucky enough to have gotten most of the advice that I use in person. In Benchrest, unlike many other types of shooting, barrels are taken off and put back on all the time, and I will admit that because of that frequency we have developed procedures that are designed to be fool proof when used in a hurry, at a match. To the extent that one is smithing for different end uses, the need for these methods may not be the same, and I have always supported the idea that if a thing works, that should be good enough. All of that said, let me relate a story that speaks to that very point. A friend, who has made the USA World Benchrest Championship team twice in his short career in benchrest, studied under a master smith, so that he can fit and chamber his own barrels. He is meticulous by nature. Once when we were discussing barrel thread fit, he told me of a time that he made a mistake when cutting tenon threads, and cut them undersized. Instead of just cutting the tenon off and starting over, he decided to see how the barrel shot. It turned out to be one of his best shooting barrels. I am not saying that a tight fit is a bad thing, just that if the action is completely true and correct, that it may not be a requirement. Like I said, if it works for you, then you have no reason to change...but neither of us can know if someone else, that reads this thread will understand and or correctly apply your high standards of workmanship, and if they do not, I don't think that having a little cheap insurance is such a bad idea. Do you?
 
You may find this thread interesting about barrel lube.
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?73661-Anyone-assemble-barrels-to-actions-without-any-lube
Butch
 
I have been using straight Bostic never seize- looks like I will maybe look for something else. I have also used that black engine assembly grease that comes in a tube. I think it has moly and graphite in it.

I am with Jerry on this subject, why would you ever even try it? Too easy just to grease up and go!
 
Butch, Boyd,
Thanks for the links. Good stuff. Going back to read them again in case I missed something. Already put my copper anti seize back on the shelf, thought that would be good to use.
Got lots of that EP moly grease to use instead.
It surprised me that Greg recommended 100 ft-lbs on lubed threads when many BR fellas seem to just give it a 'whack'.
Once this torque-lub is sorted out in my mind, it will be easier to figure out what kind of vise to buy.
 
I find that my Davidson style (generally referred to as low torque) barrel vise (portable, secured with a couple of C clamps) works fine up to some pretty hefty torque applications. The only reason that I would need something else would be to remove factory barrels that were put on with thread locker, or have some corrosion, or thread interference issues. My method for tightening the four bolts that clamp the barrel is quite scientific ;-) I use the box end of a combination wrench and apply as much force as I can manage with one hand. I should add that I have big hands and forearms. So far, I have not had a barrel slip. This is what I use.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/sid=69720/pid=36757/Product/DAVIDSON_BARREL_VISE
If you scroll down on this page, you will see a picture of the action wrench that I use to change barrels on my 6PPC that has a Viper action. I like it a lot.
http://www.kelbly.com/rings.html
 
ok butch i have gone over to the other site very interesting comments . some i thought where rather abusive the professionals handled their selfs accordingly and did'nt reduce to name calling . i did say on this site that i tried grease i blued two more guns today and no problem . the stainless ther really is no issue with using it on those guns .going back to my original post . i was not stating that anyone who uses grease is wrong . i did not tell anyone to change their style according to me . all i stated was i have done barreling without grease and never had a barrel seize . i tried to explain the thread tolerence that i use when barrel threading . not to critize anyone including you or not to imply you are somehow inferior .
to find out why i have not seized a barrel without grease . to which i did state from now on i will use in an earier post . based on this information :
i thread between a # 2A and # 3A class thread .
i torque and by the way i did rig my torque wrench up to the wrench today after tightening by feel two SS barreling in rem. actions. the wrench broke at 82 lbs the other at 90 lbs .
this was done without grease eand there was no galling upon disassembly .
I have checked my records and i don't know how this stacks up to the long time builders . i have done about 620 barrel jobs .i don't know the break down of SS and custom actions . the vast majority have been rem., win.,savage and howa.
customs witchita, bat and stole.
my threads go on by hand and donot have any pressure when threading.i loosened my barrel on the receiver and put an indicator on the rear tang and checked lateral movement . it measured .0015 or .003tho. total ind.runout.

as i said i am going to use grease this wa s just a test for informational purposes .
are my threads to loose ?
should they be tighter on custom actions ?
if someone can tell me what class thread should be used i would appreciate it .
my guns seem to proform well but any improvement that can be made helps . i always listen to reason and there have been some very good points posted . T.R.
boyd i will be in touch tonight .
 
I put three barrels on today. They are all CM actions as I don't believe in SS actions. I have been using Bostic never seize and I am not sure which formula as when I ran out last time, I refilled it from a gallon container and not sure if it was the same copper bearing stuff or not. Never occurred to me that the solids were forming a "washer" between the recoil lug. I was able to get them to the witness marks using a tiny dab of Bostic and a tiny dab of moly engine assembly lube.

All three of these barrels just came back from being nitrided and seemed to go back to where they were supposed to. I have no idea what affect, if any, the nitriding has on the thread interaction. I have also sprayed a barrel tenon with "Mrs Moly" which was originally meant to be a bullet treatment. I suspect this would not come off in a bluing tank and would probably prevent galling.

I am going to order some of this product which I think is similar to what Brownells sell for like a million dollars an ounce!

http://www.dowcorning.com/applications/search/products/details.aspx?prod=01889877&type=PROD

can be purchased here:

http://www.skygeek.com/molykote-g-n-metal-assembly-paste.html
 
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